UK adoption of US gun lisencing laws

[Ozzy Fudd]

Have you seen A & E on a Fri/Sat night?

 

yep, but what has that got to do with 24 hr drinking? surely thats just typical friday/saturday night drinking?!

[Guest]

My mum works in A/E since she is a radiographer and last saturday and Friday were quite quiet actualy, however soe Saturdays and Fridays are more busy. So to say that increase of drinking hours has negatively impacted upon accidents is opinionated at best.

[Guest]

Coming back to the subject, lax gun laws allow law abiding people to be better armed. Criminals will not respect gun laws, so what makes some peopel here think that reducing guns to law abiding citizens will therefore reduce supply to criminals?

[Shuck.]

Absolute Rubbish!!!

 

Care to explain or..?

[Shuck.]

Coming back to the subject, lax gun laws allow law abiding people to be better armed. Criminals will not respect gun laws, so what makes some peopel here think that reducing guns to law abiding citizens will therefore reduce supply to criminals?

 

Precisely. Outlaw guns and only Outlaws will have them and Vicey Versa.

[Guest]

I think the problem is in Europe we have allowed these Anti organisations to spring up and tell us what to do. If in America there is legislation to restrict the type of guns that are allowed as well as limit on clip capacity the peopel would be in arms and so would a powerful organisation such as the NRA. That is why DC has reallowed peopel to have ahndguns in the capital due to the effort of organisations like these which have deemed a law banning handguns in DC as Unconstitutional.

 

If there was a law tommorrow saying: We need to ban shotguns from having more than one cartridge capacity in the Uk the response would be by shooting organisations: No we don't agree, but in the end it would be passed anyway. I don't understand this in the UK, not having a backbone to stand up to QUANGO organisations and special interest groups.

[Aldous Huxley]

I do think Britain ought to allow more types of weapons to be purchased, i.e. handguns and semi-automatic rifles. However I believe this should come with stronger licencing procedures to get one. However I doubt it would happen.

 

I had one though, why not allow doctors to have any firearm they want? Afterall they are very rekliable and stand up people. Obviously this would not happen because it would be far to discriminatory. Likewise if you allowed anyone with an income of £65000 (proven by tax receipts) to have handguns and semi automatics then I suspect you would have very few crimes. The problem is again, it would be seen as discriminatory.

[LXX73]

My mum works in A/E since she is a radiographer and last saturday and Friday were quite quiet actualy, however soe Saturdays and Fridays are more busy. So to say that increase of drinking hours has negatively impacted upon accidents is opinionated at best.

 

 

I wasn't really relating to any increase in drinking hours just pointing out the fact that our streets on a Fri/Sat nights in alot of towns are full of not rights as it is and packed A & E's are testament to that. An A & E quiet at weekend your not from the Outer Hebrides are you? Problem solved give everybody easy access to firearms so they can shoot themselves instead.

[Guest]

No actually, my mum works at a South London hospital. There are probably worse areas in the Uk other than South London, but not many.

[Killjoy]

Care to explain or..?

 

Not particulaly.....

 

Tell me why you think an armed society would me a polite society?

[njc110381]

I think some gun controls are good. As others have said already we need to restrict the ownership rather than the guns. Our system is ok now, but it would be much better if the FAC was the same as the SGC. All guns are recorded but we could buy and sell/ have various calibres more freely.

 

No law restricts the criminal. If I wanted a Glock I could have one by the end of the week, but it wouldn't be legal. That's a lot quicker than I could get a variation for a new rifle!

[casts_by_fly]

Gun laws in the states vary from state to state . I believe california being the most laxed and newyork being the tightest .

My family live in new york state and I have been visiting for many years and have hunted deer and small game anad have never had any problem with using guns over there .

In new york state a citizen is allowed to purchase a rifle or shotgun over the counter with proof of ID and proof of citizenship . All these transactions are reported to the police and serial numbers given . So there is a record of purchase and who owns the gun . Hand guns are much more controlled inso much as if you want to buy one the dealer has to submit your name and address to the police for them to contact you within 7 days . You will not be allowed to have the handgun untill you have had a visit from the police . The police will check you out for any criminal record and refuse you the right to purchase a hand gun if you do infact have a record . If you stack up to be a good citizen the police will issue you a purchasing form that you then take to the gun dealer to buy your gun . If you want to apply for a concealed carry permit you will then have to take a 5 day pistol course taken locally which is under the eye of the local sheriff or city police .

Most of my cousins in new york state male and female have concealed carry permits . You dont need any permit to carry your pistol were it can be seen . Again this only applies to new york state , I dont know how other states work . Perhaps some of our american cousins can tell us .

Harnser

 

 

Harnser,

 

NY does NOT have open carry. Some states do (PA is one) but NY does not. In fact, just to own a handgun in NYS you must have a pistol permit. Most states will allow you to own a handgun and keep it at your residence or place of business without a pistol permit. NY does not. Additionally, some states are open carry which means no pistol permit (of any type) is required to carry firearms openly. There are plenty of tricky rules you have to be careful of whether you are carrying openly or concealed. Additionally, VT (I believe) is a no permit state for concealed carry which means you can carry concealed without any permit.

 

Long guns still have a criminal records check, but it is an instant check. You must not be a felon or otherwise barred from owning guns. It is the same as the checks the FLD do here, except it is all instant.

 

When firearms are purchased from a dealer, the dealer records the sale in their ATF books. Beyond that point, there is no 'registration' and tracking. Most states allow intra state transfers without a dealer being involved. That means I can buy and sell personal long guns from/to anyone in the state who is allowed to own them. Handguns always require a dealer.

 

California is not the most laxed state for gun laws. In fact it is one of the most strict (up there with NY, NJ, and IL). They have recently passed laws banning lead bullets and shot in certain areas (above and beyond for waterfowl as it is everywhere else), there are new, very strict laws/permits for selling guns into CA from outside the state, and in general the state is very strict about guns (50 cal is banned there). For some of the more laxed states, Florida, Montana, Pennsylvania, Vermont, Texas, and west virginia are ones I know to be more lenient. The base rules for buying guns are pretty much the same no matter what state you're in. You have to be a non felon, non crazy, of age, citizen, etc. Some states implement other rules to modify the process a bit such as NJ which has a firearms ID card. It takes up to 6 months to get it and you can't buy or hold a gun in NJ without it, including non NJ residents buying from a store in NJ.

 

As for the original question, I don't see the UK implementing the US's style gun laws. It would basically repeal all of the laws that have been put on the books that control gun ownership. I wouldbe in support of what some have said above in terms of 'class licensing'. Basically, rifles would work like shotguns. If you are approved for rimfires, you can have as many of you want of whatever type you want. Same rules for notification of purcase, just no need to ask permission to buy. Centerfires would be the same, except you'd apply for an upper limit of power/caliber. If I'm allowed a 300 mag, then anything smaller is just fine too. Same land check's and open certs apply.

 

Thanks

Rick

[Guest]

Yes that is correct, California and New York are virtual police states when it comes to firearm ownership.

Notice that America does have checks in place to ensure that criminals or mentally ill peopel are not allowed firearms, however once you are fit to have a gun you can own most guns. In the UK for some reason you are judged a criminal first and then you have to prove that you can own firearms.

[Harnser]

Thank you Rick . I stand corrected and I am sure you have more knowledge than me on this matter . I was relating my experiance of the gun laws in new york state by refering to the conversations with my cousins who are all hunting and fishing men .

Harnser .

[Guest]

USA gun laws, state by state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_t...ates_(by_state)

 

I just noticed this bit of legislation at the botttom:

"Class 3 Firearms: Machine guns are legal if you follow BATFE process, state statute 941.27

 

Short-barrel rifles and shotguns are legal if you follow BATFE process, state statute 941.28

 

Silencers are legal if you follow BATFE process, statute 941.298"

 

Contrary to popular belief it seems that you can own fully automatic machine guns in the USA with a special permit which is a little bit stricter, probably like the UK FAC licence.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Guest

[casts_by_fly]

For the 'special' firearms (class 3, also called NFA I believe), you have to apply to the treasury department for a special stamp. It costs $200 and takes 3-6 months to get it. You need a stamp for each 'special' item you get and you can only do it through a class 3 firearms dealer. You also need your local sheriff to sign off on the application. Once all of that goes through, you have to order the special firearm through a class 3 dealer (not any ordinary firearms dealer can handle them). Yes, it is similar to the FAC process here, aside from the price and the fact that you need one stamp ($200) per item. You then have to notify the Feds if you are going to take that item across state lines and get approval to do so 3 months before you do it.

 

Then, only certain states allow certain items. PA allows silencers, but NY and NJ do not. There is a chart on the net somewhere summarizing the general categories each state allows. If you google "allowed silencers machine guns by state" it should be in the top 10 hits.

 

I fully intend to get the stamp for a silencer when I move back, but I can only do it if I'm in 23 of the 50 states. There is a good chance I'll be going back to NY/NJ which means that I won't be able to.

 

Thanks,

Rick

[markbivvy]

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

[Guest]

Yes, very good site. Also check out: http://www.gunfacts.info/

 

Very good PDF booklet

 

Coming back to the Class 3 licence in America, it seems there is a propaganda campaign here as well as in America. In the USA the media would make it have that fully automatic firearms are banned which is clearly not the case, if you get an ATF licence.

 

Also, a lot of americans have been brainwashed to think that us in the Uk are not allowed ANY sort of gun whatsoever, so when I show americans photos of my legally owned shotguns, they are absolutely shocked :look: that me as a British person can own firearms

[Shuck.]

"Underreporting murder data: British crime reporting tactics keep murder rates artificially low. "Suppose that three men kill a woman during an argument outside a bar. They are arrested for murder, but because of problems with identification (the main witness is dead), charges are eventually dropped. In American crime statistics, the event counts as a three-person homicide, but in British statistics it counts as nothing at all. 'With such differences in reporting criteria, comparisons of U.S. homicide rates with British homicide rates is a sham,' [a 2000 report from the Inspectorate of Constabulary] concludes."

 

Good bit of info Mark

Edited August 26, 2009 by Shuck.

[Dr_Scholl]

USA gun laws, state by state:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_t...ates_(by_state)

 

I just noticed this bit of legislation at the botttom:

"Class 3 Firearms: Machine guns are legal if you follow BATFE process, state statute 941.27

 

Short-barrel rifles and shotguns are legal if you follow BATFE process, state statute 941.28

 

Silencers are legal if you follow BATFE process, statute 941.298"

 

Contrary to popular belief it seems that you can own fully automatic machine guns in the USA with a special permit which is a little bit stricter, probably like the UK FAC licence.

 

CCW laws in the U.S

 

Getting a permit for a machine gun is more than a little stricter. Basically you have to make your life an open book to get one by submitting to a rigorous background check, endless forms, a $200 tax, and a six month waiting period. And after all that, you're still only allowed to buy a machine gun made before May 1986. That's the year the sale and transfer of all new machine guns was banned in the U.S. And your average machine gun runs about 10 grand right now.

[Guest]

Oh damn you are right, I just looked at this website: http://www.westernfirearms.com

The average machine gun is more like £15,000.

I never realised they are so expensive in full auto. I mean the same gun in semi-auto you can get it for a fraction of a price. Is this a sales issue where they levy a tax on the guns since it's a machine gun or is it just advanced engineering, eg. a machine gun has to be built with different components form a semi?

[Dr_Scholl]

Oh damn you are right, I just looked at this website: http://www.westernfirearms.com

The average machine gun is more like £15,000.

I never realised they are so expensive in full auto. I mean the same gun in semi-auto you can get it for a fraction of a price. Is this a sales issue where they levy a tax on the guns since it's a machine gun or is it just advanced engineering, eg. a machine gun has to be built with different components form a semi?

 

It says it on the website. The government banned the sale and transfer of all new machine guns manufactured after May 19, 1986 for civilian ownership. They were banned from import for civilian use in 1968. Since there's a fixed number of full autos and more people want them every year, the price goes up. My semi-automatic AR-15's were about $1,000 each. A transferable selective fire M-16 would cost anywhere from 12-18K, since no more are being produced for the civilian market and they're such a collectors item.

 

It's actually cheaper and easier to build a select fire weapon than a semi-auto only one. I'm not sure how, but if you go on a website that only sells to LEO's, they're a few hundred dollars cheaper than their semi-auto counterparts.

[Guest]

Yeah I saw some videos of youtube about a guy who had select fire AR-15s, one switch and it would be full auto. Don't know if he held them legally or not. Yup makes sense if the only machine guns that were made available for civillian use are ones from 1986 and further back and there's less of them it makes sense for the price. A bit like finding a nice sports car from the 1960s.

[cdb]

Very interesting thread chaps.

 

Let me clear up the original point. UK gun laws will never be relaxed.

 

I work in central government. I've seen many an instance where 'how it plays' outweighs logic, rhyme or reason when developing policy. Let me explain how guns ‘play’ politically (this isn't rocket science!):

 

1. A significant number of UK voters are your middle-England, Daily Mail reading* NIMBY type.

2. Most of those voters think guns are bad.

3. There are more of those voters than voters who think guns are good.

 

Whether or not gun crime has gone up since 1997 (it has), or increased gun ownership would lead to a drop in domestic burglary (not seen any evidence), or any other hypothesis you may have about how the streets would be safer if we all carried guns, they’re all irrelevant. Any political party proposing to relax gun laws would effect a net loss in votes at the next election because of facts 1, 2 and 3 above. Any other party would then see the opportunity to scoop up these voters by campaigning for greater gun control. Believe me, any opposition party would love this scenario as it’s much easier to win votes by sidelining a minority group (shooters) than it is to fight for votes on a topic that everyone cares about, e.g. the NHS or education policy.

 

As long as the firearm is one of the preferred weapons for crime guns will, by and large, carry negative connotations in the minds of most voters.

 

My personal opinion: I don’t like the idea of a gun licensing free for all. Don’t get me wrong, I love shooting as much as all you do, and although I only have a shotgun licence, I didn’t think it was that difficult to get my SGC – me being an average citizen. I’m glad that any miscreant off the street can’t just buy a gun.

 

Going back to my Whitehall experiences, ‘unintended consequences’ are explored a lot when making policy (i.e. what would new legislation bring about that is not part of the desired outcome). I feel sure relaxing gun legislation would be a can of worms you couldn’t possibly predict. What you can assume is that it would be a genie you’d never get back into the bottle.

 

 

*Sorry if you read the Daily Mail, but this is official Whitehall terminology!

[Guest]

Yeah, can you also tell us, since you work with thsoe politicians, why do they think they are above the law and have no grasp of reality how life in Britain really is. You say they have to pander to voters? Well what about pandering to what people are really saying? If they don't give a damn about the voters they might as well enact lax gun laws.