which .223 should I buy?

[allthegearandnoidea]

I'm in the market for a new .223. My local shop has a CZ (wooden syock) and a Remington 700 (syntheic stock) but can get others if I know what I want. The trouble is I'm really not sure.

 

I want a gun for foxing but one that I can also use for targets at bisley every now and again. After Baldricks adivce and the advice of the gun shop, I beleive I need a gun with a 1 in 12" twist.

 

I have used a .222 CZ which I liked, and I also like the look of the gun as I prefer wood to synthetic socks.

 

Having read some of the threads on here the Tikka T3 seems like a good choice but I would like the advice of you guys on here.

 

I do have to say I am leaning towards the CZ because I have used a couple and liked them but would like the advice of people with more experience than me.

 

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

G

[magman]

I beleive I need a gun with a 1 in 12" twist.

 

Depends on the range your shooting at ?

[beretta man]

if i was you id get a cooper from fox firearms , the only drawback is that they are single shot !

 

then get DM80 screwcut it and make you a DM80 mod ,,,

 

google DM80 moderator and see what comes up you will be amazed ,, he made me one for my 223 and 17 hmr they are a work of art and its a shame to use them

 

remington 700's are workhorses , you could dig a road with them and it will still shoot straight

 

i have a cz 527 and cant wait to get rid of it ....

 

hope this helps

[magman]

if i was you id get a cooper from fox firearms , the only drawback is that they are single shot !

 

then get DM80 screwcut it and make you a DM80 mod ,,,

 

google DM80 moderator and see what comes up you will be amazed ,, he made me one for my 223 and 17 hmr they are a work of art and its a shame to use them

 

remington 700's are workhorses , you could dig a road with them and it will still shoot straight

 

i have a cz 527 and cant wait to get rid of it ....

 

hope this helps B)

 

Just what you need when you come across a liter of cubs

[beretta man]

magman i dont know why you always have to be so negative !! whats your problem im only telling the lad !!

[allthegearandnoidea]

Range will be sensible ranges for foxes, 100-200 yards, but then maybe a bit more at bisley

[magman]

magman i dont know why you always have to be so negative !! whats your problem im only telling the lad !!

 

What good is a single shot to him if he come's across a full liter of cubs

call it negative if you like , i call it common sense

[magman]

Range will be sensible ranges for foxes, 100-200 yards, but then maybe a bit more at bisley

 

I shoot a 1 in 8 twist that will shoot 40 grn to 80 grn bullets , also lets you stretch your legs a bit more

[markm]

I have 2 CZ's, both rimfire but if it was down to either in C/F I would go for a remington, without a doubt. I would suggest either a secondhand Tikka or push the boat out and get a new Tikka or win the lottery and get a sako.

[Mr_Logic]

In 223, I've got a Remington SPS Tactical (Hogue stock, 1:9 twist) and a CZ527 synthetic. I've also owned a Howa 1500 which I sold as it was heavy and only had a 1:12 twist so less than useful at Bisley.

 

Best twist rate for a general purpose 223 is 1:9, very simply it allows you to shoot a light fox bullet or heavier (to 70 grain) target bullet well. 1:8 on the Tikkas is probably even better because you can shoot hornady's 75 A-max which has a very high BC and if you ask it nicely will even splutter its way to 1000 yards.

 

But, at 500 yards, a 55 grain will be OK, and you can shoot it from a 12 twist. So, how much time are you going to spend at Bisley? Is it there that the gun will do most of its work, or will you be foxing with the occasional bit of informal target bashing?

 

One thing, I would avoid a 20 inch barrel. My remington has that, and it is the main limitation. you DO lose considerable velocity and that is key for the target shooting.

 

22" barrel is about right, good balance for the field and velocity is OK.

 

Let's assume you'll get a sporter for the field and use it a bit at Bisley, since heavier tools are a pain in the field.

 

My first choice would be a Tikka, because of that 1:8 twist. I wouldn't get one in 1:12, they are cheaply made, and can be annoying. They're very accurate and normally reliable, but they aren't cheap now and in use they feel cheaper than they are, and that always gets to me.

 

Now, CZs... someone said they'd sell theirs, well I disagree there. I have had my CZ for about a year now, following the Howa it replaced. It has shot Prvi factory ammo, JHP American Eagle factory, both to MOA or better. It shoots a 50 grain V-max or Blitzking on top of 27.1 gr of Varget to < 1/2 MOA, pretty much every time. I've also used N130, that's a bughole too.

 

The trigger can be adjusted in about 20 minutes to one with zero creep and a lovely let-off, no extras needed, much better than any *** Remington trigger (my Remington has a Rifle Basix, and the CZ's better than that, too). It has shot countless foxes, some at pretty decent (250+, at night) ranges and it's been good as gold the whole time. It cost me all of £400, and without its clothes on it weighs 5 3/4 lbs, yet is beautifully balanced with a moderator (Jet Z CQB) on the end.

 

So yes, I like my CZ. I've got another one in Hornet, and I had a CZ550 in .308. I've also had rimfires over the years. Never had a bad one. Beyond forums, I've never even HEARD of anyone having a bad one.

 

The only bad point about it is the scope choice - because of a high bolt lift and limited adjustment of mount positioning, the scope has to fit the gun. 2 of mine do - the Bushnell 4-16x50 Elite 4200 it has, and my 8x56 Schmidt. Avoid Leupolds on them at all costs!

 

All that said, you're not going to go wrong with a Remington either. they're good, solid dependable rifles and you can tweak them all you like. But if it were me, for a fox rifle, unless you get a 1:8 Tikka, CZ's where my money goes, each and every time.

[ferretmanabu]

I've got a BRNO 601 which is a lovely rifle. Very nice trigger (option of set trigger) and holds nicely too. I highly recommend it if you can find one on guntrader.

[DaveK]

We can advise and discuss this til' we're long in the tooth (and have). It's all down to what you get on with personally. Even the cheapest and nastiest rifle is the best to buy if it's the one that fits you and you can shoot.

 

Speak to shooters you know and see if you can try a few different ones before you decide.

 

Oh, and I agree with the CZ 527. I had one and have regretted selling it. I have a Howa and it's the dogs nuts. Lorraine has a Remy 700 and it's on a par with the Howa.

 

But why spend several hundreds if a cheaper one will do exactly what you want of it. You either want to throw it about and shoot it or stroke it a lot til' it's shiny.

[stevethevanman]

I would say that...is your idea of Bisley, realistic...i.e. are you actually going to go down there time to time or is it going to be like once a year...I really wouldnt spend the time finding a 1:8 gun if its not often.

 

Im not sure if Frank still posts on here, but he used to kill foxes in hordes and he used a CZ...I have 2 CZ rimfires, and if you dont need a gun to be super accurate ther is honestly no advantage with a more expensive gun if you lay it all down and look at it.

 

also if its not a dedicated target, you will have to re zero for target ammo anyway, unless you use HP's or SP's for target, which is still ok.

 

Also CZ tend to not be as ammo fussy as others like remington, they shoot American Eagle hollow points very well....so there is no reason not to go for a CZ really? ...also a single shot firearm might not be bad say wild boar hunting, but in a .223 for fox you really do, want that extra magazine, I have been lamping, seen some eyes, fired, and then had a small flash and seen some more right next to him so having a single shot there is going to be a pain really.

 

Also, a very cheap remington is going to be just as accurate as a CZ, and you will not notice the difference chest shooting foxes, only, and out to 200yds realistic foxing distance, can you really say that a higher market 700 model is worth it??..I dont think so.

 

Steve

Edited September 7, 2009 by stevethevanman

[garyb]

What good is a single shot to him if he come's across a full liter of cubs

call it negative if you like , i call it common sense

 

Agreed.

 

The suggestion of a single shot sporting rifle is ridiculous - you owe it to your quarry to have a quick follow up shot at your disposal.

[scotland rifles]

http://www.steyr-mannlicher.com/

 

have a look here,

 

i had the pro hunter in 223 and now have it in .243. would like one in 22.250,

 

love it.

 

it has the smoothest bolt on the market place (fact), good price too, the stock is not the best in the world but it will out last you.

 

 

 

best fox was just over 330 yards with the .223 and so far just under the 300 with the 243, not bad at night for a blind Scotsman.

 

bob.

 

PS: its not what we say that matters, its all down to you. all we can do is tell you what we have found had and endded up with, and its a lot of money to spend and then find out you got it wrong

Edited September 7, 2009 by scotland rifles

[Baldrick]

if i was you id get a cooper from fox firearms , the only drawback is that they are single shot !

 

You have a >7-month wait for a new Cooper. But for the record, I can reload a Cooper M22 and have it ready to shoot in less than 2 seconds (and a Ruger No 1 quicker still). It just takes practice. I agree wholeheartedly that there is an ethical issue with using single shots, but they are not quite as cumbersome as many people think. I seem to recall that the British Army did rather well at Rorke's Drift, armed with single-shot Martini-action rifles.

 

From those options, I would buy the CZ in preference to the Remington. I have been and done the Remington thing, and it didn't suit my personal likes and requirements. I think the CZ527 is under-rated, and the mini-Mauser action and box mag is a great design. If it was my money, I would still wait for a Tikka, in the knowledge that the T3 needs no alteration or improvement, and that it offers a little more refinement.

 

Bob, you can't have tried a Sauer, Schultz & Larsen, Mauser, Heym etc if you think that the Steyr has the smoothest bolt on the market.

[scotland rifles]

You have a >7-month wait for a new Cooper. But for the record, I can reload a Cooper M22 and have it ready to shoot in less than 2 seconds (and a Ruger No 1 quicker still). It just takes practice. I agree wholeheartedly that there is an ethical issue with using single shots, but they are not quite as cumbersome as many people think. I seem to recall that the British Army did rather well at Rorke's Drift, armed with single-shot Martini-action rifles.

 

From those options, I would buy the CZ in preference to the Remington. I have been and done the Remington thing, and it didn't suit my personal likes and requirements. I think the CZ527 is under-rated, and the mini-Mauser action and box mag is a great design. If it was my money, I would still wait for a Tikka, in the knowledge that the T3 needs no alteration or improvement, and that it offers a little more refinement.

 

Bob, you can't have tried a Sauer, Schultz & Larsen, Mauser, Heym etc if you think that the Steyr has the smoothest bolt on the market.

 

 

Sauer, i found not as smooth as a steyr,

 

Schultz & Larsen never had one and never likely too want one.

 

Mauser i find it rough and feels loose on the backstroke.

 

Heym. only ever heard of them never seen or held one,

 

for normal people with normal funds i still say that the steyr is the best bolt on the market. ( well my market anyway.

 

bob.

Edited September 7, 2009 by scotland rifles

[DaveK]

Sauer, i found not as smooth as a steyr,

 

Schultz & Larsen never had one and never likely too want one.

 

Mauser i find it rough and feels loose on the backstroke.

 

Heym. only ever heard of them never seen or held one,

 

for normal people with normal funds i still say that the steyr is the best bolt on the market. ( well my market anyway.

 

bob.

 

I seem to remember, Bob, that you haven't had a FAC for very long at all. Where does this vast wealth of experience come from?

[Baldrick]

Sauer, i found not as smooth as a steyr,

 

Schultz & Larsen never had one and never likely too want one.

 

Mauser i find it rough and feels loose on the backstroke.

 

Heym. only ever heard of them never seen or held one,

 

for normal people with normal funds i still say that the steyr is the best bolt on the market. ( well my market anyway.

 

bob.

 

So it's not really a definitive analysis of the smoothness of current bolt actions?

[scotland rifles]

I seem to remember, Bob, that you haven't had a FAC for very long at all. Where does this vast wealth of experience come from?

 

 

well i have only had my civvy ticket for just 5 years.

 

ex part time member of the Dorset riflemen.

 

 

my mate builds rifles to some of the highest standards you will get in the UK, and i have worked and learnt loads from him, shot some of the best rifles he has built (and one of his rifles has just won the UK F Class at bisley)

 

I am an ex military regimental/schools gunnery instructor covering all calibres from a .22 anschutz rim fire to 9mm browning to a 9mm smg to a 7.62 lmg 7.62 slr to a 30 cal browning to a 50 cal browning to a 30mm rarden cannon to a 76mm scorpion tank to a swing-fire missile to a 84mm Carl Gustave and finally to a 120mm main armament on a challenger tank.

 

so i have got a wee bit of shooting knowledge all be it in the army,

 

and i still think the bolt on the steyr is top notch.

 

bob.

Edited September 8, 2009 by scotland rifles

[Baldrick]

well i have only had my civvy ticket for just 5 years.

 

ex part time member of the Dorset riflemen.

 

 

my mate builds rifles to some of the highest standards you will get in the UK, and i have worked and learnt loads from him, shot some of the best rifles he has built (and one of his rifles has just won the UK F Class at bisley)

 

I am an ex military regimental/schools gunnery instructor covering all calibres from a .22 anschutz rim fire to 9mm browning to a 9mm smg to a 7.62 lmg 7.62 slr to a 30 cal browning to a 50 cal browning to a 30mm rarden cannon to a 76mm scorpion tank to a swing-fire missile to a 84mm Carl Gustave and finally to a 120mm main armament on a challenger tank.

 

so i have got a wee bit of shooting knowledge all be it in the army,

 

and i still think the bolt on the steyr is top notch.

 

bob.

 

That's a good answer, apart from the Steyr bit. We'll just to agree to disagree.

[scotland rifles]

That's a good answer, apart from the Steyr bit. We'll just to agree to disagree.

 

you are correct sir.

 

and as i have not used all the rifles in the world i was bound to be wrong.

 

and here is a picture of me in 1978 on sennelager ranges west Germany using a BREN LMG, on that day as a AIG (assistant gunnery instructor) i shot over 9,000 roundS before lunch. WE WHERE SHOOTING THE BARRELS OUT AS THEY WHERE BEING FADDED OUT OF SERVICE.

 

bob.

Edited September 8, 2009 by scotland rifles

[Baldrick]

I have fond memories of Sennelager ranges too, but I never expended quite that much brass in a morning. That is quite some going.

[scotland rifles]

I have fond memories of Sennelager ranges too, but I never expended quite that much brass in a morning. That is quite some going.

 

not the most i have used,

 

if i can remember we used over 40.000 round of ammo in a fire power demo in lulworth cove.

 

and around 400 sabot 300 apfsds and around 600 hesh rounds.

 

not bad for a show of just what we can pump down range on a good day with just 3 tanks.

 

bob.

Edited September 8, 2009 by scotland rifles

[harv]

Steyr for me aswell