22 Rimfire Pistol Petition

[deadeye18]

Notsosureshot while i disagree with most of what you said you made an excellent and very true statement in saying that shooters in britain are fractured And dont stand together like they do in the U.S..This really is the most important thing that needs to change if we are to survive and keep shooting going for future generations.as for nibbling at the edges id rather do that than nothing at all.even though i dont agree with you i respect you for sticking your head above the parapit and giving your views.atb

[GHE]

22 pistols are used for target shooting, not live quarry

 

To say that a repeal of the ban to allow 22 pistols again is of no benefit to the shooting community at large is simply not correct

 

Target sports are an integral part of UK shooting, we have some of the best target shooters in the world, and all shooters should stand together in my view.

That's sad, I find myself agreeing 100% with BASC!

Which is why I signed, even though I have absolutely no personal interest in punching holes in bits of paper with a pistol.

 

I can see all the arguments against .22 pistols and every other kind of firearm, but I truly believe that unless all shooters unite to protect our sport, it will only be a few years before the only people who have guns will be criminals and the police - the only 2 groups of shooters who terrify me.

[notsosureshot]

22 pistols are used for target shooting, not live quarry

 

To say that a repeal of the ban to allow 22 pistols again is of no benefit to the shooting community at large is simply not correct

 

Target sports are an integral part of UK shooting, we have some of the best target shooters in the world, and all shooters should stand together in my view.

 

Hi David.

 

In terms of the UK, their use was limited to target shooting yes.

 

I don't disagree with what you are saying in general. We have some excellent target shooters and target shooting is integral to the shooting sports, absolutely!

 

My point is why are shooters petitioning for just the .22lr? What about the guys who lost their revolvers in .357 through no fault of their own, or historic pistol shooters who now have abide by such restrictive rules, that unless you happen to live near an approved site, it's very inconvenient to take up as a hobby.

 

Even if a ban on .22lr is overturned on the basis that it is a current olympic discipline, what next? I honestly do not think a repeal of the .22lr pistol legislation would lead to any additional calibres as I cannot see any justification which would appease voters across the political spectrum without a major change in law. The Olympics is a reason even some of the anti's understand.

 

We should stand together, which is exactly why I'd like to see the community come together, not to lobby for a single calibre, but for the restoration of pistol target shooting in any calibre, as a sport.

 

Have we given that possibility up as a lost cause though and decided to settle for .22? Reading around, it sort of does feel that way, sadly.

 

Notsosureshot while i disagree with most of what you said you made an excellent and very true statement in saying that shooters in britain are fractured And dont stand together like they do in the U.S..This really is the most important thing that needs to change if we are to survive and keep shooting going for future generations.as for nibbling at the edges id rather do that than nothing at all.even though i dont agree with you i respect you for sticking your head above the parapit and giving your views.atb

 

Hi deadeye, thanks for your response. My post, as a "devils advocate", was intended to generate discussion and I hope will do so.

 

I apologise if it came across like I don't care about .22lr pistol shooting, I do and I would try to help in any way if I believed it would lead to fair access to all pistol shooting disciplines for responsible people, which is where I think collective energy should be focused.

 

*edit* I was trying to highlight the fundamental differences in attitude towards firearms in the UK and USA and why they exist. Hence the reference to "self defence", which is what entrenches firearms ownership in US law and indirectly allows sport/target shooting with almost any gun. We have nothing of the sort, so it could be even more important that we stand together and focus on the bigger issues.

 

Put it this way, by campaigning for a single calibre, are we saying that shooters are responsible enough for .22lr, but not for 9mm?

 

See my point?

Edited February 26, 2015 by notsosureshot

[deadeye18]

I get what your saying fella and yes you are right a campaign for pistols of all types/calibers would be brilliant but if we can get 22s back then surely its better than nothing and would be a good springboard for another push on bigger calibers.if there was a petition for all calibers knocking about id sign it in a heartbeat,but sadly there isnt.atb.

[spanj]

Playing devils advocate, please hear me out. I cannot think of a single compelling reason to allow legal posession of .22lr pistols in the UK for the general public Outside of the Olympics, they have no useful application whatsoever in the UK, or arguably, anywhere in the world. Granting of their possesion has no benefit to the shooting community at large, outside of a niche sector of Olympic shooters (which I appreciate very much, but it is a relatively minor issue on the whole). Having shot countless pistol calibres over the years, I can safely say that .22lr is the least interesting of all.

 

.22lr is a tiny calibre which has virtually no practical applications when used from a pistol, outside maybe killing dangerous snakes with shotshells when out hunting in the Middle of Nowhere, USA. We British harp on about how it has the potential to kill or maim at a mile, but it is still a pathetically small calibre in the great scheme of things and over in the USA, such pistols are treated as kids toys, or pea shooters. They are a right of passage to daddy's 30-06 rifle. Which is the correct attitude for them, assuming basic safety has already been instilled, and mostly it is, in the US at least.

 

I am very conscious of firearm safety. But good safety standards should be applied to everything, be it a shotgun, rifle, pistol, crossbow, broom handle, axe, power saw or baby cot. Safety is not an issue unique to firearms.

 

Whether we like it or not, the ban on pistols of all calibres, could easily be justified by the fact they are more easily concealed, thus, could be used more conveniently when committing an offence, than a long barrelled equivalent (notice there is no mention of sawn off shotguns or machine guns etc.). The law completely disregards the fact that .22lr, unless used by some sort of professional assasin, it is unlikely to be fatal, although it would certainly smart a bit. However, I have yet to see a single compelling argument against the legislation from the pro gun folks, nor do I have one myself based on calibre alone.

 

I am being deliberately awkward but British shooters on the right side of the law, do not seem to understand that, in general, that we would never be allowed access to pistols in any form, until other lawful justifications come into the argument.

 

The judiciary, when considering the legal ownership of firearms, often fails to consider the ownership, by criminals, of sawn-off shotguns, machine guns or anything of that sort and how little impact losses by legal owners have on crime statistics in general. In short, criminals do not need legal owners to create an armoury of weapons. One point which I have always found really rather sad/amusing is the mention of Brocock type guns in police statistics. As if a criminal with any standing whatsoever, would ever actually stoop so low as to convert an air gun, when down the road you can buy a .38 for £100 or chop the barrels off a shotgun. They are hardly going to be worried about compliance with their certificate anyway? Perhaps a few kids converted the Brococks, but we're hardly talking about Al Capone and mass murder are we, yet legal owners of such airguns suffered as a result and nothing was done.

 

The preservation of a hobby is not sufficient for the enactment of legislation and this has been proven time and again. Even centuries old traditions, like fox hunting with hounds (you don't have to agree with it to get my point) have be regulated to the point where they cannot be practiced as intended. The simple fact of the matter is, the USA has pistols because self defence is a reason to own a firearm in most states of the USA. It is NOT a legal reason to own a firearm in the UK.

 

Until this changes, you are barking up the wrong tree entirely when it comes to pistol ownership.

 

Nibbling at the edges wont get people anywhere on this topic, in my opinion. The US constitution is based on English principles. If you wish to fight for anything meaningful, fight to reclaim those rights to self defence, not some pointless small calibre in pistol form. This is not a situation where slowly, slowly, catchy monkey would ever work. The entire reasoning behind firearms in the UK would need to be challenged directly.

 

Honestly, I am not sure I'd want firearms for self defence in the UK and as a pro-gun person in general, that places me in a dilemma. On one hand, criminals here do have guns available, but on the other, they do not seem to be considered as necessary in the commission of crime, and are not as freely available to criminals as in say, the USA, but may become so if firearms were more freely available to potential victims. It's a tough call, even for me as a supporter of gun rights, to argue against the reasons they are so restricted. I would not really want the UK to become like the USA.

 

Perhaps I'm old fashioned. I still have visions of a Victorian gentleman brandishing a pistol and arresting a thief, holding him until the police arrive blowing their whistle. Remember, it is only 100 years since a pocket pistol, often a Webley .455, was as much a part of a gentlemens daily dress as his tie. Why suddenly, did we become so generally irresponsible as a society in the eyes of the judiciary and our own, self elected, government?

 

I am conflicted about the entire subject but please, lets not beat around the bush and try to convince the judiciary that somehow the right to own a .22lr pistol is important to anyone aside from a tiny proportion of international class shooters.

 

Because, it isn't. There are wider issues at stake no matter which side of the fence you stand. If you have read my entire post then you need to decide which side of the fence you are on. Are you for self defence with firearms, or against? It really is that simple.

 

Opinions will vary on this forum, as the subject is centered on hunting. But I assume there is no reason we cannot have healthy debate.

 

I didn't sign the petition, I'll say that. Simply because I think it is pointless in so far as to detract from the wider issue of gun attitudes in the UK. Although I do agree with it in principle, I feel like it is a microscopic part of a more serious debate, which needs attention.

 

I am very much a community minded person and I would never object if someone elected to shoot .22lr as a hobby, I would actively support them. My point is, that you will never, ever, get legislation alterered on that basis alone. That is the sole reason I did not sign the petition. Rightly or wrongly, I feel it is misdirected sentiment and I try to be, pardon the pun, targeted, in my approach to such things.

 

If you made a petition for the right to self defence style community protection by individuals, one has to wonder, how many signatures that would attract? My guess? Not very many. And therein lies the whole problem in being a shooter in the UK, we don't stand together, irrespective of the support we may receive for our concerns. We are fragmented. Pigeon shooters, game shooters, target shooters, rifle shooters, pistol (LBR) shooters, bench rest shooters, clay shooters, farmers, home defense advocates. In the US, all of those people may be called "gun owners", or, arguably, NRA members. Think about it. It's not difficult to see why we struggle in making ourselves heard.

 

Long post, but sometimes I find it an emotive subject. On one hand I want to help the author of the petition, on the other, I feel it is utterly futile to try in such a manner.

 

I hope I have made some relevant points and I welcome feedback.

 

Cheers.

If you are conflicted on a point I'd recommend staying schtum until you have come down on one side or the other. Your missive does nothing for shooting as a whole and just promotes the divide and conquer approach that will likely end all private gun ownership in the UK within my lifetime. If you feel the petition is futile, thats fine dont sign it but dont moan when there is nobody left to support whichever shooting discipline you enjoy when it comes under scrutiny.

Edited February 26, 2015 by spanj

[notsosureshot]

just promotes the divide and conquer approach that will likely end all private gun ownership in the UK within my lifetime. If you feel the petition is futile, thats fine dont sign it but dont moan when there is nobody left to support whichever shooting discipline you enjoy when it comes under scrutiny.

 

The divide and conquer approach is exactly what I was suggesting be avoided. I'm not against this petition at all, but in my view it only enhances a single aspect of our shared interest, versus for example, a petition enhancing our collective rights. The petition on lead shot being an example of a community wide issue. I enjoy target pistol (45 ACP) amongst other disciplines, and have to travel abroad to do it, which is a rare luxury these days for me. For example, I look at lads with their LBR's and feel sad, knowing many of them are former pistol shooters, that we can't unite and make it clear to the public that we are decent, law abiding people, with a niche sporting interest and all we seek is fairness and the freedom to pursue our passtime.

 

I deliberately didn't come down on one side or the other on certain issues, because I like to hear what other people have to say, as many of you have more life experience than I do, which is valued.

 

Anyway, I don't wish to derail this thread further, I probably should have made a new thread in which to encourage debate. So apologies to the OP and good luck with the petition. I am reconsidering whether to sign it or not, in light of some interesting points made here.

Edited February 26, 2015 by notsosureshot

[ordnance]

22lr is a tiny calibre which has virtually no practical applications when used from a pistol. Outside of the Olympics, they have no useful application whatsoever in the UK, or arguably, anywhere in the world.

 

You are seriously underestimating the damage a .22 lr round can cause. They did issue .22 handguns to some off duty soldiers in Northern Ireland was that not an example of a practical applications, they obviously disagreed with your view of it as a useless round in a handgun, it would not be my first choice but for different reasons. Why would you support Olympic shooters punching holes in paper and not others. ?

 

 

I enjoy target pistol (45 ACP) amongst other disciplines, and have to travel abroad to do it,

You enjoy target shooting with a handgun but don't think others should be able to outside the Olympics. I agree the petition should have being for all calibers, and also shooting . 22 handguns can get boring very fast, i own one and its the one i shoot the least, but better than nothing.

Edited February 26, 2015 by ordnance

[notsosureshot]

 

You are seriously underestimating the damage a .22 lr round can cause. They did issue .22 handguns to some off duty soldiers in Northern Ireland was that not an example of a practical applications, they obviously disagreed with your view of it as a useless round in a handgun, it would not be my first choice but for different reasons. Why would you support Olympic shooters punching holes in paper and not others. ?

 

I "misspoke", should have said olympic style disciplines or something along those lines and my follow up posts clarified. As for practical applications, I don't think use against humans qualifies as practical on a hunting forum such as this... Thank you for taking the time to read my post so throughly.

[ordnance]

 

I don't think use against humans qualifies as practical on a hunting forum such as this..

Ok it was you that posted that it Quote, I cannot think of a single compelling reason to allow legal possession of .22lr pistols in the UK for the general public Outside of the Olympics, they have no useful application whatsoever in the UK, or arguably, anywhere in the world. I am pointing out that it is and has being used for self defense in the UK, so is has a useful application, you said above that you could not see an useful application here or worldwide. As for the general public owning a .22 handgun for target shooting why not as long as its on a firearms certificate like other firearms used for target shooting.

[notsosureshot]

Ok it was you that posted that it Quote, I cannot think of a single compelling reason to allow legal possession of .22lr pistols in the UK for the general public Outside of the Olympics, they have no useful application whatsoever in the UK, or arguably, anywhere in the world. I am pointing out that it is and has being used for self defense in the UK, so is has a useful application, you said above that you could not see an useful application here or worldwide. As for the general public owning a .22 handgun for target shooting why not as long as its on a firearms certificate like other firearms used for target shooting.

 

You misunderstand my intention. I am not against law abiding people owning a .22lr, or for that matter, anything else, for target shooting. Quite the opposite. What I said was, I cannot think of a compelling reason. What I mean by that, is a reason which would be acceptable to the wider public and make it likely that the ban be overturned, other than the fact that it is used for the olympics, which is of interest to many people and transcends the issue of gun control.

 

The point I'm driving at, is that it is not shooters that we need to convince. They mostly already support a repeal of the law. But how do we show the general public outside of the shooting community, that we are to be trusted to pursue our hobby without placing them at additional risk and as I said earlier, if we can justify and be trusted with a .22lr why not any other calibre? So the petition is self limiting in a way.

 

Do you see what I mean?

[Bitfitter]

There are plenty of us that use .22lr pistols for HD it is by far the most appropriate tool on most occasions, the one I have is moderated I find it perfect for RTC work since it is quiet,discrete and not too much gun to use at the road side

[notsosureshot]

There are plenty of us that use .22lr pistols for HD it is by far the most appropriate tool on most occasions, the one I have is moderated I find it perfect for RTC work since it is quiet,discrete and not too much gun to use at the road side

 

I hadn't considered HD, it's a compelling reason for the use of pistols, but that is already lawful under section 5 i think?

[ordnance]

I see what you are saying, I suppose they think that .22 LR would be easier to justify as it is a popular calibre for target shooting by civilians and in the Olympics and commonwealth games ect. 9 MM and .45 would be harder to justify, it can be used for competition , but would be seen more as a military and police round. I personally can't see any political party lifting the ban there is nothing positive in it for them, but one incident and it could cost they dearly. I also think there is no support for lifting the ban among the general public and police in mainland UK, most outside shooting enthusiasts seem to me to be hostile to any type of firearms. More so than I see in this part of the UK people have a more balanced view on firearms, legal ownership of firearms including handguns is not seen as a problem.

Edited February 26, 2015 by ordnance

[Scully]

As I've said before, the crucial point that is often overlooked is that the handgun ban had nothing to do with handguns but everything to do with politics. That's all it was about, politics. A sleaze riddled Tory government pushed into a corner by a horrific shooting incident, a hostile media and an up and coming new labour party seizing every opportunity to capitalise on the incident (remember Blair posing with representatives of the snowdrop campaign?) to the full, and a serious lack of backbone by shooting organisations running around like headless chickens. The outcome was inevitable as logic and reasoning went out the window. Handgun owners were parodied as 'walts' and psychos. How many shooters lobbied their MP, the HO and parliament? How many wrote in response to the utter tripe printed by the media and the unknowledgeable public? There has never been a better example of 'I'm alright jack' within a group of supposedly likeminded people.

It's a valid point that we should be campaigning for the repeal of the handgun ban as a whole and not just .22lr, but the entire subject is political suicide and no government party will seriously entertain it; think of the headlines. Our shooting organisations may make reassuring noises but none of them are seriously pursuing this matter.

The theory that handguns are easier to conceal is a valid one, but not as a reason to explain the requirement to add a long barrel and a elbow brace. The idea is laughable. Concealment hasn't ever been an over-riding factor in any shooting spree that I know of. The perpetrator has all the advantages regardless of the weapon used, and especially in an environment in which they know they will be unopposed, and have done what they did with whatever weapons they had to hand. None of them sought out weapons easily concealed.

The last shooting spree was carried out by a legitimate firearms owner using the firearms the vast majority on here use and are familiar with, and logic dictates the next one will be also.

Sign the petition or not; it's your choice. Personally I think it's a waste of time, but as it only takes seconds, what harm can it do?

[Bitfitter]

 

I hadn't considered HD, it's a compelling reason for the use of pistols, but that is already lawful under section 5 i think?

Not so much a reason for wider use or ownership just an example of where a .22lr is actually a useful and relevant tool

[notsosureshot]

As I've said before, the crucial point that is often overlooked is that the handgun ban had nothing to do with handguns but everything to do with politics. That's all it was about, politics. A sleaze riddled Tory government pushed into a corner by a horrific shooting incident, a hostile media and an up and coming new labour party seizing every opportunity to capitalise on the incident (remember Blair posing with representatives of the snowdrop campaign?) to the full, and a serious lack of backbone by shooting organisations running around like headless chickens. The outcome was inevitable as logic and reasoning went out the window. Handgun owners were parodied as 'walts' and psychos. How many shooters lobbied their MP, the HO and parliament? How many wrote in response to the utter tripe printed by the media and the unknowledgeable public? There has never been a better example of 'I'm alright jack' within a group of supposedly likeminded people.

It's a valid point that we should be campaigning for the repeal of the handgun ban as a whole and not just .22lr, but the entire subject is political suicide and no government party will seriously entertain it; think of the headlines. Our shooting organisations may make reassuring noises but none of them are seriously pursuing this matter.

The theory that handguns are easier to conceal is a valid one, but not as a reason to explain the requirement to add a long barrel and a elbow brace. The idea is laughable. Concealment hasn't ever been an over-riding factor in any shooting spree that I know of. The perpetrator has all the advantages regardless of the weapon used, and especially in an environment in which they know they will be unopposed, and have done what they did with whatever weapons they had to hand. None of them sought out weapons easily concealed.

The last shooting spree was carried out by a legitimate firearms owner using the firearms the vast majority on here use and are familiar with, and logic dictates the next one will be also.

Sign the petition or not; it's your choice. Personally I think it's a waste of time, but as it only takes seconds, what harm can it do?

 

We are in agreement on many of those points. Wishful thinking, but wouldn't it be nice to have a set of truthful statistics (never going to happen) relating to how many people are killed or injured each year by other items of sporting equipment or kitchen implements? Guns just have a bad reputation due to the flawed, yet popular argument, that they are designed only to kill.

 

It can't do any harm to sign. My reluctance is due to the fact that I feel like I should reason out the goals and consequences of a cause, before I put my name to it. There are so many petitions these days, on so many issues. It's a bit like requests for sponsorship or charity donations. You can't agree to them all.

 

On balance, I think I have come around and will sign. I think it is our best shot, no pun intended, at having pistols back in any form. I also think that it is ludicrous that our Olympic team, or promising shooters, need to travel to Belgium to practice and I wouldn't force that on anyone...

 

Not so much a reason for wider use or ownership just an example of where a .22lr is actually a useful and relevant tool

 

Absolutely agree Bitfitter.

 

 

 

I think overall, after a few twists and turns, I accomplished my goal at getting a few people talking and hopefully, that is a positive thing.

 

As a side note, one thing I'd like to correct, is that someone mentioned that 45 ACP is not considered to be a competition calibre. I beg to differ, it's just not used as such over here for obvious reasons. It's a competitive discipline just like any other in many countries. Anecdotally, the reason I prefer it to any other calibre is a bit unusual. The first experience I ever had with pistols, I shot a range of calibres from .22lr up to .44 mag. A typical public range experience I suppose. Out of all the different pistols, I was the most accurate, by far, with a bog standard (old) Colt 1911 in 45acp which someone let me borrow. That has never changed in the 15 years since. A bit odd really, as I have fairly small hands and it is not considered particularly accurate as a calibre, especially not alongside a buckmark 22. Anyway, I stuck with it and I've been fortunate to try all manner of tricked out 1911 competition pistols. If you ever get the chance, shoot a Wilson Combat, any model. Utterly astonishing pieces of engineering. 2.5" 5 shot group on a playing card at 15 yards and I am far from a good shot. To coin a phrase, those things are "nail drivers".

[stewartward]

Signed

[Mungler]

Dunblane did for handguns and Michael Ryan did for semi automatic rifles.

 

Convincing the general public (and then in turn the politicians and then in turn the judiciary) that 'the shooting community' should have them back is beyond up hill.

 

The one chance to get .22 pistols in was the Olympics and those cards weren't properly played or in the right order and the opportunity was lost.

 

After all, we've banned handguns, you can't shoot .22 pistol here and yet we scooped handfuls of medals for shooting - not exactly a call to action really

 

 

Edit

 

I wonder what would have happened if every shooter of every discipline (including those tipped for gold) all in concert refused to participate in the Olympucs as a protest to how legitimate shooters are treated. Every calibre, every discipline and then put pressure on the archers to fall in because their sport could be next.

 

Better than an anonymous signature on yet another worthless on line petition / poll?

Edited February 27, 2015 by Mungler

[deadeye18]

if i was an olympic medal winner id have been tempted to hand the medal over to another country or just throw it on the floor in protest.

[Scully]

if i was an olympic medal winner id have been tempted to hand the medal over to another country or just throw it on the floor in protest.

I doubt that. Think of the consequences it would have on you personally for a group of people who don't care.

Mungler raises some good valid points, and it is also an excellent example of 'I'm alright Jack', and for perfectly understandable reasons. You train for years for a major sporting event which occurs only once every four years and then finish your career by refusing to compete? It aint gonna happen; and you aint gonna get the likes of Mr Faulds or Mr Wilson on board either for the very same reasons, which is a shame really as the next shooting spree is very unlikely to occur with a .22 pistol, but very likely to occur with a shotgun...again.

Can we survive... again? No doubt we'll just make a bit of a noise before sacrificing all those Practical 'nut jobs'. I mean, what's that all about eh? Running around with bandoliers full of BB's like Pancho Villa? They're a minority who wont be missed eh? Then sit back with a huge sigh of relief and a sense of satisfaction. Sound familiar anyone?

To all those who claim they care, lobby your shooting organisation; refuse to renew your memberships until they back up their head nodding with substance, lobby your MP, the Olympic committee and HO ministers. As a start, begin a letter writing campaign (even an email as long as it's of your own creation) rather than the easy option of clicking on a box. Hilarious! Too much like hard work? Let someone else do it then.

[deadeye18]

Hello scully,thats why i said "tempted".Now then running around like pancho villa with bandoliers full of BB sounds like awesome fun!!!!!!i think if we could do something to get the press on our side then the battle to get pistols etc back would be a lot easier.it seemed to me that the sun paper is as great if not greater enemy of shooting as the government is.

Edited February 27, 2015 by deadeye18

[Scully]

It is great fun. 👍

[The Mighty Prawn]

No BB though, maximum shot size 6 or you will get spanked

[Scully]

No BB though, maximum shot size 6 or you will get spanked

You can't let the truth get in the way of good rhetoric, it doesn't create the image one requires to sell a point.

[ordnance]

Edit.

Edited February 27, 2015 by ordnance