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. 20 years ago the lads had an X17.22 and a Pair of X15s in .177. . But found one of the X15s the other week in the back shed in pieces. Built it back up with just what was in the Dog food sack, and it worked great. Sights were off it completely and it had a cheap 4x20 scope in the sack it was unuseable. Put a Simmons White tail 3 to 9 on it and it was remarkably accurate with RWS Hoby and H&N FTTs . I was impressed just how accurate this kids gun was its trigger was on the heavy side but it was predictable. It is a raggy hole at 30 yards and at 15 yards killed some rats, i have not chronoed it but think it will be about 7ftbls it seemed better back in the day but think the spring was weakening and why the eldest lad tore it down in the first place. Fact is its IMO very accurate in its curent weakened spring natural state of tune. it locks up great that detent ball idea works and its tight as a drum after years of abuse and neglect. Chinese yes cheap yes but accurate it vcertainly is. the barrel must be somewhere near acceptable to be as accurate as it is. Stocks too small but with mods or a Home made stock its capable of bell target accuracy IMO I might just set to and knock something up and have a go with it, mot expensive bit would be a air arms diopter .

Thanks for the reply , I have looked at a friends Yilditz and it was good for the money, But i need the long life i have had Brownings years and two berettas have been great. My thoughts are just spend the money get what i want .

Sorry should have mentioned i will be reloading with SP3 and in Home dropped leaD OR sTEEL FROM iNDI CAST 2.8mM (s7) SHOT. AT £46fOR 28 kgS. I Would as you say stick with a 12 or 20 if if a big saving could not be had. Thanks all ill look into the Yilditz then, only look around the £600 area new could be a bonus if pick up a used one. Any other Makes models?

I am looking to get a .410 O/U , it will be predominantly a pigeon decoying gun and i want a Tough durable reliable long lived example. I Have calways leaned towards brownings or mirokus over Other brands , but am not especially Brand loyal i just like the way brownings handle . I do want a .410, i dont want a 28 Bore or a 20 bore. I kind of dropped out of Pigeon shooting around the time of covid and what with the price of cartridges and other shooting commitments i never revisited pigeon shooting serriously since then. After the wildfowling season ended in february i did the ussual Roost shoots and dd a few sessions on drillings with shotgun and tried air rifle pigeon shooting over decoys for the first time. I Got the Bug again i missed it but not the cost, i Can reload steel 12s cheapish but not as cheap as .410, So Decided to look into a dedicated Pigeon decoy O/u and hense the post here. Now not being a gun snob , But as said i like brownings but really any tough long lived reliable O/U will do, and up to the price point of the Browning or berreta options. Are there any other makes and models worth consideration for a durable last for years .410? I am seeing hearing Yilditz ATAs and such on youtube but know nothing of these, I have used and seen used lots of Hatsan and ATA semi autos on marshes that take abuse for many years anything in o/u worth a look. ?

FWB 127 vsport is about the smoothest out of the box spring powered air rifle , a 10ftlb webley vulcan 177 i played with is smooth and the HW30 is again worth considering. I dare say you can smooth up most spring powered air guns to some extent. But stock or more or less stock i think the FWB 127 and Webley vulcan with a softer spring are my picks for smooth.

Yes "The nay Sayers" . it is strange how actively biased some peoples attitude to the sub 12 .25s can be, and just ringing around trying to find a .25 especially a Cheapo hatsan a brand many dealers dont stock and even those that did very few had a .25 . I firmly believe if i had not had a long history of firearms ownership and use and had a good idea of how such a sub12 .25 would perform, the biass against sub 12 .25s was so prevalent i would have probably given up. Just look back in this thread its there to see, I have had a great many .177 and .22s and even a .20 sheridan back in the day all worked and guess what so dose the sub 12 .25. In use the only suprising thing was the hatsan 1000x itself its accuracy/consistancy is good. I consider that .25s trajectory akin to a sub 12 .22 shooting a heavier pellet i consider shooting the H&N FTTs lighter pellet helps with the trajectory problems so many seem to get hung up on when .25s are debated especially sub 12s and a springer too a cheap springer" sacrilege" On closing remember the old elmer keith quote " Big holes let lots of cold air in" Well thats as may be but it kills decisively that much i do know. More of less than a well placed .177 or .22 ?the doubters may ask. Well I will add this, i have never had any air rifle stop rats so reliably with barely a kick in my life that bigger pellet works decisively IMO. .

That is my opinion too but it depends on the ranges you want to shoot at. Keep Range in the 20s or get used to the trajectory they will retain more energy than the lighter20.06 grain ftts i use. The heavier .25s are slow compared to .22s and certainly .177s but at 30/35 or more yards the pellets weight holds onto more ftlbs its just a matter of learning the trajectory at various ranges in that curve. Fathom that by reticule plex or milldots etc and you have an effective rifle.

They do them they are 31 grain.

The thing is with the .25 its slow and by the time it gets to 30/35 yards its only in the 5 to 6ftlbs area, yet its still enough to kill a rat if you can actually hit it, to go over this range in a 12ftlbs format anyway would be beyond my abilities i believe the guns abilities and just not worth attempting . Hitting is the decider if you can at 30 yards fine go with that, but really 25 yards is a much more reasonable range for practical purposes everything taken into account and if you are running any pellets over the 20.06grains of the H&Nftts sure you will retain a bit more ftlbs of energy at 25 to 30 yards say but the lighter pellets have that bit more speed at the closer ranges say20 to 25 yards you typically use the rifle at. the longer range shots are achievable on rats the power is there and .25s are accurate but the trajectory aspect needs attention and perfecting to hit reliable, and again past say a max of 35yards its out there in my opinion. The charts posted on page one show this clearly.

I have thought about a bigger mag possibly a 3_9 x scope but the 4x is fine on rats out to the 35 yards i have been shooting this .25. Not sure i will gain anything i think the 4x works adequately for what i am doing and i have no intentions of using this rifle at longer ranges to be fair.

The Hatsan 1000X .25 is over 18 months old now over 2k pellets through it and its working perfectly well, i am now very used to the some what lobby trajectory of the .25 and i am connecting reliably into the 30/35 yard area now on rats which are a small target at that range for me that rifle and a 4x scope. But familiarity is good in my opinion and i know this set ups capabilities well, its consistent and sticking with the Gun scope and h&N FTTs is paying dividends. I am Liking the .25 and was considering buying a NP02 in.25, But slow deliverey had me give up on a .25 PCP and i just persevered with the springer, and indeed purchased a Hatsan 900X.177 just to add to the hatsan brand thing and down to just how impresed i am with the budget spring powered .25s accuracy levels, the 900x.177 is again a keeper and accurate and all for £90, i mean what do you want on such a low budget.

I can only advise what works very well in my hatsan at4410 .177, it thrives on H&N FTTS . think they are 8 and a bit grains without looking.

OH yes i can relate to that fact only too well, my knees are shocking and i fear it wont be too long until i need some sort of surgery.

Stand if its practical but equaly if hide is super low profile sitting will do, a decent compromise is kneeling its not as good as standing but less restrictive than seated proper.

I dont know £20 is not much but the money i spent just getting to the hogan was starting to get silly. I was lucky i got rid of the Kral and Kept the weiruch for my incredibly noisey crosman 2240 Now that thing really needs a silencer.