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Modern plastic case cartridges are of varying speeds from different manufactures, that's all I've known since the mid 80's. I've got a selection of old papercase ones mostly Eley inc' Eley Kynoch. Back then I assume cartridge powder was more like "all the same" & one speed fits all. Would my old cart's be softer shooting than today's equivalent (30g) being a slower powder ?

Bit of a mixed lot of cartridges up for grabs as follows: 12 Gauge plastic wad 22 x Winchester Super speed 3 shot, 70mm 36g. 10 in original box, 12 loose, print has been worn off loose cartridges where they've been carried & some rusting/discoloration of brass. £10 16 Gauge plastic wad 25 x Winchester Range 6 shot 67mm 14 x Cheddite 6 shot 67mm 6 x Eley Kynoch "Anglia" hand loaded by the Anglia cart co 6 shot £10 the lot No weight displayed on any of these, all loose. 20 Gauge fibre wad 450 (18 complete boxes of 25) Saga Olimpic Trap C.20 7.5 shot 24g £90 Collection South of Norwich Norfolk, would also consider swaps for 12g clay or game cartridges.

Hypothesis The Fiocchi ‘Pigeon 32’ cartridges that I have been using appear to cause excessive wounding. Earlier investigatory testing on the pattern plate (at various ranges with various chokes) showed these cartridges behaved erratically; the pellets tended to stick together with a lot less pellets than expected hitting the target. Better shooting performance could be achieved by trying two readily available brands and undertaking pattern testing in the method described by John Harradine for the BASC, June 2013. To provide some context, here are some example results from earlier testing using a factory extended 1/2 choke (20 thou) at 40 yards: Fiocchi Pigeon 32g – 98 Eley Pigeon HV 32g - 168 Gamebore Clear Pigeon 32g - 171 Desired average – 140 Note: Based on this earlier testing, I invested in a 3/8 choke (15 thou). Method Shoot the pattern plate then draw a 30 inch circle over the centre of the pattern. The goal is to achieve the minimum average pellet count in a 30 inch circle, at the desired range, with at least 10 pattern tests per cartridge. For more detail on the method see: https://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/topic/340965-basc-pattern-test-we-need/ (I can’t find a copy of the original document) My specification is: Range = 40 yards Minimum average pellet count in 30 inch circle = 140 (for pigeon) Do no exceed 140 by too much as shooting is expected to be at 25 to 40 yards and the pigeon must be edible. In addition to the method described in the link, I have created two extra sets of data in an attempt to provide indicative results on how erratic a given cartridge can be. This is because its difficult if not impossible to consistently judge the evenness of a pattern with the human eye, but it is possible to collect data on the perceived errors in a pattern. Multiple Hits (MH) – This is the number of times pellets appear to have hit the same place at the same time; 2 hits in the same place gives a hole that looks like a figure of eight. Number of Pellets Together (NPT) – the total number of pellets that appear to have hit the same place at the same time; the sum of the pellets counted in multiple hits. For example: A pair of pellets hitting one place and a pair hitting another would be MH=2 NPT=4. Note: I have no way of knowing if 2 pellets did hit the target at the same time. Its possible one pellet was at the front of the shot cloud and one at the back. I do think its more likely that the pellets become stuck together in the barrel. Multiple Hits can be identified by multiple uniform curves around a hole in the target, this can be can be as high as 5. Its possibly why sometimes your quarry appears to have been ‘hit hard’ - it got it by 5 pellets in almost the exactly same place at the same time. Apparatus Gun: Browing Maxus, 26 inch barrel, Briley Helix Hunter ‘Mid-Range’ Choke (15 Thou) Medium: Lining paper from B&M Bargains Target: Mk2 Portable Pattern Plate (patent pending) Specifications of Cartridges under test Fiocchi: ‘Pigeon 32’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Eley: ‘Pigeon HV’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Gamebore: ‘Clear Pigeon’ - 32 gram - No. 6 - Fibre Wad Results Testing of the Fiocchi cartridges was not continued due to obvious poor performance; its not worth the time or effort. Conclusion The Fiocchi cartridges under test were of exceptionally poor quality. The pellet count and spread of the pattern was poor. This accounts for the excessive wounding. I have cut open some cartridges and found all the pellets are all separated so large amounts of pellets must stick together in the barrel. Perhaps the lead is too soft and/or the diameter of the wad does not provide sufficient obturation. Both the Eley and Gamebore cartridges gave much better results than the Fiocchi. With a 15 thou choke, the Eley cartridges achieved the desired average pellet count without exceeding it too much. With a 15 thou choke, the Gamebore cartridges did not achieve the desired average pellet count; 17% less pellets in a 30 inch circle when compared with the Eley. The standard deviation for pellet count was significantly lower for the Eley cartridges; 14.43 compared with 18.21 for Gamebore. Therefore the Eley cartridges are more consistent when compared to the Gamebore cartridges. The Gamebore cartridges had on average 27% more Multiple Hits and a 37.55% higher Number of Pellets Together. This is more evidence of inconsistency from the Gamebore cartridges when compared to the Eley cartridges. The Gamebore cartridges would benefit from a 20 thou choke to increase the average pellet count, although it is highly unlikely that this would improve consistency. Just because the Gamebore cartridge is marketed well with a nicely printed box and celebrity endorsement… it doesn't mean its any better than the competition. Notes on the Efficacy of the Method I’m satisfied that 10 tests per cartridge gave meaningful average and standard deviation values for pellet count, MH and NPT. If I stopped at 5 tests per cartridge, the results for average pellet count would have still been accurate enough to reach a worthwhile conclusion, although the Standard Deviation for pellet count would have been a lot less accurate. Scores for the first 5 tests only would have been as follows: In future, I am unsure as to weather I would spend the time & effort on 10+ tests for each cartridge if there is an obvious trend emerging after 5 tests. FAQ Q: Why did you bother with all this!? A: I was interested in the real world effects of different chokes & cartridge combinations and whether or not these match up to the gut feelings & rules of thumb people like to iterate. Q: What have you learnt so far? A: So far I've found that even if you stick to the same loads at a similar price, the choice of cartridge is very important, more important than choice of choke. I’ve never heard anyone say that before. I thinks its generally assumed that ‘similar’ cartridges behave in a similar way, but they certainly don’t. Q: Would you do it again? A: Yes, I plan to do this two more times; once for game and once for clays. Q: Why did you choose a Briley Helix Hunter ‘Mid-Range’ Choke? A: Its a 3/8 choke (15 thou) which was my best guess to achieve the desired average pellet count, based on earlier testing. Its advertised as being optimum for 25 to 40 yards using lead shot. Its aftermarket & extended which should give more consistent results with a wide variety of loads when compared to factory Invector chokes (based on information from American writers such as Randy Wakeman). Most importantly, I think it looks good on the end of a semi-auto. Q: Any tips for conducting pattern tests? A: It’s actually difficult to hit a stationary target at 40 yards in a consistent manor with a shotgun. I think this is because you are not moving you body, your muscles are not offering much resistance to recoil forces that are far higher than most rifles. This can lead to excessive barrel flip and throw the centre of the pattern so far off that the result is unusable. I used a semi-auto, I imagine this effect can be far worse with a double barrel. To achieve a consistent result, I mark my point of aim 2 thirds from the top to the target rather than half way down. I’ve found its best to mount the gun slightly over the top of the target, pulling tightly into the shoulder with both hands, slowly lower the gun on to the point of aim while breathing out, stop when out of breath & at the point of aim then finally pull the trigger. Do not hold on the point of aim as there is a tendency to drift side to side. My Portable Pattern Plate is 40 x 40 inches, I recommend 50 x 50 inches to alleviate this problem.

Hi I have for sale the following Eley 20b VIP Game shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 20 boxes of 25 ( 2x slabs)- they are 70mm Number 7 shot/ 28gram. I am looking to sell a whole slab at £55 each. Collection only due to the weight, might manage delivery within Aberdeenshire SGC holders only, licence will need to be seen. Cash on collection. Thanks Jamie

Hi I have for sale the following Eley 20b VIP Game shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 20 boxes of 25 ( 2x slabs)- they are 70mm Number 7 shot/ 28gram. I am looking to sell a whole slab at £70 each. Collection only due to the weight, collection is Aberdeenshire or for the next few days (14th - 17th Oct) Sutherland. SGC holders only, licence will need to be seen. Cash on collection. Thanks Jamie

Hi All I have for sale the following items Eley 12b Grand Prix Bismuth shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 10 boxes of 25 (whole slab) - they are 65mm Number 5 shot/ 30 gram Eley 20b Grand Prix Bismuth shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 10 boxes of 25 (whole slab) - they are 65mm Number 5 shot/ 23 gram. I am looking to sell the whole slab at £225 each. Collection only due to the weight, collection is Aberdeenshire. SGC holders only, licence will need to be seen. Cash on collection. Thanks Jamie

Hi I have for sale the following Eley 20b VIP Game shot Fibre wad Cartridges x 20 boxes of 25 ( 2x slabs)- they are 70mm Number 7 shot/ 28gram. I am looking to sell a whole slab at £70 each. Collection only due to the weight, collection is Aberdeenshire or for the next few days (14th - 17th Oct) Sutherland. SGC holders only, licence will need to be seen. Cash on collection. Thanks Jamie

Hi I'm in a bit of a pickle I'm after some spent eley classic game 20g paper cartridges to make buttonholes for my wedding in a month. I appreciate its an odd request but if anyone has any could they let me know by pm or just reply to the post.

Morning all, Was wondering if any of you could help me put a rough date on these carts. They were my great grandads and he died early nineties so Im guessing the shiny boxed ones have got to be at least 25 years old. Haven't got any intention of using them I just like the boxes. Thanks all.

Has anyone on here bought some cartridges from the offer that just cartridges has on. I ordered a few Eley vip 20b in number 7 shot as they where worth a go. I opened up a cartridge to see what a degradable plas wad looks like to find a few of the shot in different sizes and a couple that where attached to each other, to make sure it wasn't a one off I looked at one from a different slab that was also the same. I don't think I have seen a vip in shot size 7 before. Anyone else got the same Cheers

Eley Hawk have a new M.D. I hope he can resurrect the status of Eley shotgun cartridges. As it's been decimated over the past ten years. I believe that he's from Maxam/Rio so it will be good to see how he performs in the coming months. Sink or swim? Only time will tell.

Are these any good to anyone who collects old cartridges. Looking for £25 for the lot. Face to face sale to a SGC holder only. Located in Macclesfield. 25 x 12g clay cartridges made by Hull for the Sandringham Shooting School. 25 x .410 Eley Fourlong no6 shot cartridges. [/url http://s1313.photobucket.com/user/_byjovecarruthers/media/imagejpg2_zps7f3e99fe.jpg.html]

As per the pictures, WR Pape .410 2" RTO, complete with box. 12x No.12 shot, 6x No.8 shot, then comes the interesting ones, 4x no named cartridges and they feel as though they have no shot in them, so possibly bird scarers headstamp just says .410 on them. £50 as they are a rarity, but open to offers. All offers and questions by PM please. More of the WR Pape...

Mickley hall shooting school and Eley hawk are hosting the 50 bird Olympic challenge on Saturday the 23rd august. It's billed as a fun day with byley air rifle club in attendance for you to have a go, archery challenge, BBQ and loads of refreshments. The main event will be 50 sporting competition sponsored by Eley hawk, Olympic cartridges are to be used and 50 cartridges are part of the entry fee of £20. The new club house is up and there will be loads to see and do for all shooters and family. Open from 10am till 5pm last comp card 3:30 pm. Www.mickleyhall.com www.cheshireactivities.com Admin@mickleyhall.com 07766252438

All, A friend of mine has given me some old cartridges to destroy that he found in his granddads shed. Having looked at them, there's some interesting ones. I dont collect cartridges but they might be of interest to someone. Collection only with SGC, donation of your choice to the PW charity of the year please. First up: 4 .410 paper case RTO Eley size 5, no shot weight available. The brass is stamped Eley Kynoch .410 Second: A Single 12b plastic case RTO size 5, no shot weight on it. Stamped Sandrigham on one side, and then an image of a man and his dog with: Gallyon & Sons LTD Gun and Cartridge Makers Peterborough Kings Lynn Cambridge Made in Great Britain

I have some surplus 20 gauge pigeon / game ammo for sale or swop 500 Lyalvale Express Special 20, 20 gauge shotgun cartidges, min chamber 65mm, 32g, 6s, fibre wad, £115, price is for 500 cartridges, have 500 only 500 Lyalvale Express Special 20, 20 gauge shotgun cartridges, min chamber 65mm, 32g, 5s, fibre wad, £115, price is for 500 cartridges, have 1000 of these 200 Eley VIP Game, 20 gauge shotgun cartridges, min chamber 70mm / 2 3/4", 32g, 5s, fibre wad, £50, price is for 200 cartridges, have 200 only Cash or consider swop / px for decent condition HW80 .177, Diana 45 .177, or PCP (what have you ?) Please read this next bit before making any inquiry, thanks : If you would like to purchase or swop please send me a PM., I'm only replying to PMs, I'm not replying to posts, no PM no reply. Local meet, or I can drop off along A47 / A11 corridor for cash, SGC only. These are inexpensive so no low cash offers please. To swop for the right gun happy to travel reasonable distance within East Anglia only, SGC only. Just to reiterate no low cash offers, and no attention seeking timewasters, SGC only. Please reread the above before making any inquiry. Thanks !