kermitpwee Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 Total newbie to dogs. I just got a 4 year old springer today. The dog will not walk on a lead, he is like a hoover hunting while on the lead. I rang the guy i bought him off and he said he doesn't teach gundogs to be on a lead as they will lose their drive to hunt, Have i been sold a lemon or is he correct? Be easy on me, im just a beginner! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I would just wait a while until the dog gets to know you and it may then behave in a very different manner on the lead. It doesn't need to be perfect on the lead, but it should not be unmanagable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermitpwee Posted October 29, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 I would just wait a while until the dog gets to know you and it may then behave in a very different manner on the lead. It doesn't need to be perfect on the lead, but it should not be unmanagable. Ya your right. Im just a bit worried about him. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pegleg31 Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 my lab walks to heel alot better off the lead,don't know why? i only have her on a lead if there' cars,other dog's or children about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 a gun dog should do what it is told. If that is 'heel' it doesn't matter if it is on lead or not. good obedience doesn't eliminate drive for game. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 He's hunting on his own terms. You need to correct this, and show that you are in charge of when to hunt... I won't allow mine to sniff at all when he should be walking to heel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malc Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 He only got the dog yesterday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermitpwee Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 (edited) Update. I did not bother with the lead today. I brought him 1/2 a mile down the road and he was hunting away, he would not heal at all. I brought him into the field and he worked very well. I covered the whole field with him and he was like a hoover. He worked 8- 12 yards away from me at all times and put out a woodcock out of rough cover. Back out on the road again and back to his tricks the only thing he will heed on the road is the stop whistle. I have a feeling unless i correct his behaviour on the country lanes now, he will eventually take this madness into the field. Thanks for all the advice folks. I'll keep yee posted. Edited October 30, 2009 by kermitpwee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I rang the guy i bought him off and he said he doesn't teach gundogs to be on a lead as they will lose their drive to hunt Codswallop. Obedience is no detriment to drive or desire, and may even enhance them if instilled properly. Obedience is in fact obligatory in a working gundog, as Rick noted, and heeling on or off lead is obedience. Actually, your problem's pegged to the old saw of teaching an old dog new tricks. Many if not most dogs will rebel at being on lead for the first time. The difference is, most (on my horizon anyhow) go on lead at 12-16 weeks and get acclimated as they mature. With a 4-year-old, your work's cut out. I would outfit the dog with a prong collar so that it gets reminded that it's responsible for the unruliness on lead every time it pulls. That way, you don't have to teach an old dog a new trick, it teaches itself. You might also want to confirm that the dog will heel off load as well--from the sound of it, I'm dubious. Good luck. MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermitpwee Posted October 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 Codswallop. Obedience is no detriment to drive or desire, and may even enhance them if instilled properly. Obedience is in fact obligatory in a working gundog, as Rick noted, and heeling on or off lead is obedience. Actually, your problem's pegged to the old saw of teaching an old dog new tricks. Many if not most dogs will rebel at being on lead for the first time. The difference is, most (on my horizon anyhow) go on lead at 12-16 weeks and get acclimated as they mature. With a 4-year-old, your work's cut out. I would outfit the dog with a prong collar so that it gets reminded that it's responsible for the unruliness on lead every time it pulls. That way, you don't have to teach an old dog a new trick, it teaches itself. You might also want to confirm that the dog will heel off load as well--from the sound of it, I'm dubious. Good luck. MG Thanks for the insight. Yes i think i could be in trouble with this fellow. He won't heel off lead either. I guess its my fault I should have started with a pub and learnt my way. I was too eager to get shooting this season. Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. I'm sure i'll be back for advice folks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdunc Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 I think you need to show a bit of sympathetic control over the dog - after all he doesn't know who you are yet. I would concentrate on building a bond with the dog first before you worry about his working ability - this will need a certain amount of re-training anyway as you and your instructions will be different from what he is used to. Heel training spaniels is not always necessary but walking tidily on a lead is. Spend a bit of time at home messing about with the dog, throwing a few retrieves and making a big fuss of him - getting him to like you and trust you before trying any training like heelwork. Then you must be very calm and patient as it will be a battle of attrition with an older dog who's never heeled before. Most people who buy a trained dog encounter some problems along the way due to a breakdown of communication - speaking to the original trainer can help sort this out. Ideally you get demo'ed the dog and are familiar with how it has been trained to hunt and retrieve etc. If it's of any consolation I despise heel training and am happy with my spaniels remaining close to me within reason and they are or have competed in field trials. I wont tolerate them pulling me around when on the lead though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cracker Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 All in all, sound advice from gdunc. But rather than bonding (which inevitably will come because you're feeding the dog after all), you may have an opportunity here to assert authority over an older dog by having it heel on lead. This would be most beneficial with a 4-year-old dog that's essentially "self-employed"--meaning it hunts to hunt not to cooperate with you. Not everybody loathes heeling, nor heeling exercises--heeling is how it can best be imputed to the dog who's running the show. That would be you. I run field trials, but I run the show too. The trial season's ended and I've no access for the next month to my training venues. So during this time I work the dogs by heeling them long distances through tempting circumstances. Off lead, of course. It's a refresher for who's in charge. They are straining to get out of their skin to hunt or just run, and if they heel dutifully a long enough distance, they're indeed given their head, one at a time, upon my release. One at a time is the operative phrase because I'm heeling five at a time. But they come to understand what--proper heeling--signifies their chance to have a go. Again, I would get this newly acquired dog a necklace--prong or pinch collar--and get it under heel right quick. Establish expectations--and respect--for the new owner. The bond forms there and soon it becomes a cooperative venture that will overrule the self-hunting, disobedient and lastly untrained (not the dog's fault) situation you're now stuck with. Good luck, MG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiltsmark Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I think the chap you bought him from was right in saying he will lose his drive for hunting if on the lead but this is only correct when we are talking about the puppy stage not at 4 years old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGadger Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I might ask: does the dog look at you and your face often? If it is all together in world of its own, and takes no notice if you, you will have some problems. As said above: you have to build a bond with the dog first, but some dogs are not particulalry interested in humans, and then you will have a communication problem. Did you ask and get a decent reason why someone has let go a 4 year-old dog? If it is a good one, why let it go? My son-in-law has two springers, one they got as a 2 year old and he is in a world of his own: he hunts and flushes well, and quarters fields to hand signals, but he doesn't look at you unless you whistle to get his attention. When he does, and you give him a command, he weighs it up and _sometimes_ does as he is told. When he is on a chase, NOTHING will bring him back. He is a toe-rag and not the brightest pixie in the wood. Their other one is a bitch they got when she was 18 months: she continuously looks at you. Freezes on the whistle, does not chase and is excellent in cover. She, however, pulls like hell on a lead, but is getting there. She tends to walk to heel, (well slightly ahead) when off the lead, but has to be called back continuously. She has not had any intensive training and seems to do most of this by instinct. The purpose of all this is to illustrate that all dogs are different, and when you put into the mix, different treatments of them by owners since they were pups, that makes them even more different. There will be no guarenteed solution to a particular problem. If you have the time, getting the dog tired by giving it it's head in a field before bringing in some training and rewards would be a good idea. Springers need to let off steam, and trying to curb bad habits when they are fresh and haven't had excercise for some hours is not the way to go. Sorry about the length of the post. FG FG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermitpwee Posted November 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Folks thanks very much for all the advice. I had the dog out today for the first time with the gun and he was very good. I spent a lot of time with the dog yesterday and it has helped. On country lanes the dog is now no more than 5 feet away from me and will come to me when i tell him. The dog looks back at me when im shooting for direction and to see where i am, its only a quick look and he will follow my signals. My uncle has nicknamed him 'dyson' as he reckons he's like a hoover. If i tell the dog to stay in the one spot he will stay there even when i walk away, at one stage i pace out 85yards from him and he stayed before i beckoned him. I am only a novice but im happy with things so far. Sometimes when i pet the dog he rolls over and shows me his belly, not sure what that means but its funny to me! Didn't try him on a lead today. I'm trying my best to be strict and consistent with the dog in my commands but i don't want to be cruel either. Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lloyd90 Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 When I want the dog to heal I use a really short lead so the dog isn't out in front. She starts to pull slightly whenout front. I use a really short one so she's next to my side. If she goes ahead of me I push my leg over to stop her n nudge her backwards. NOT A KICK just a nudge. Seems to work great. She walks lovely by my side ... unless theres another dog about but thats a whole different story haha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
casts_by_fly Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I am only a novice but im happy with things so far. Sometimes when i pet the dog he rolls over and shows me his belly, not sure what that means but its funny to me! It means he wants his belly rubbed... Get a book on training a retriever and do some yard work. Go through the basics from the start. You're not trying to teach him what to do, just that he has to do it for you. Do everything in the yard, then get a long rope, then start with off lead stuff. Make sure he listens to you for everything, from the start. Sounds like you're in good shape, you just need to make sure you cover everything off. Thanks, Rick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForeignGadger Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Your last post sounded very promising. Keep at it. The fact that he looks at you means you are already building a bond with him. Sounds like you might have a good 'un. He'll repay you handsomely for the investment in time. FG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin vs Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Every dog should be good on a lead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdunc Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Sounds like the dog is trained and has started to see you as his master - this is great! Keep up the praise when he's good (and give his belly a rub for goodness sake!) and remain consistent with commands. He knows what to do but not necessarily what YOU are asking so don't give him a hard time for commands he hasn't understood - only those he's obviously disobeyed. Keep at it - he sounds like he'll be an asset to you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kermitpwee Posted December 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 Just an update for everybody that helped me out. I have been getting on very well with the dog and have learn't so much so quickly. The dog is now walking on a lead very well and will heel also. I have had a brilliant season so far shooting, the dog has been fantastic. The dog tests me usually once or twice a week on simple things like the stay command. I correct him without being too harsh and he is brill again. I have since learn't that the man I bought him off is quite successful at field trialing setters but he beats the **** out of his dogs The dog is exceptionally well trained and I have given the dog a lot of love. Due to his hard life before I thought he might run riot on me if I showed him affection. I am delighted that I was wrong as the dog has got better then ever with fair treatment. The dog is now working better for me then he was for the guy I bought him off. I have been very lucky with him. I have got to know a local guy in my area who has been training dogs for 30 years, I didn't know he existed till 2 months ago! He has told me that I have been very lucky and that he is the most honest springer he has ever seen. Thanks to all who have helped me on Pigeon Watch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gdunc Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) Sounds like it's all coming together - good stuff. "I correct him without being too harsh and he is brill again." You've picked up on something there that many who've had dogs far longer than you don't get - use the minimum degree of correction necessary. Too many go overboard for minor indiscretions. It's always good to hear someone else praising your dog to let you know you're getting on well Edited December 27, 2009 by gdunc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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