wildfowler.250 Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Hi, I was just wondering what your thoughts are on using one of the above for vermin,(particularly shooting rabbits)? I am considering getting a gun bigger than the HMR but was wondering if it's realistically too expensive to use a CF for rabbits? If I was looking into reloading, how cheaply can it be done? The reason im looking at the two mentioned is that it would allow me to shoot roe aswell,(so no hornet/.204/.221 fireball suggestions :unsure: ). I'm just looking for tried and tested opinions really, so if its too pricey I'll just stick wi the hummer ATB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy. Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) If you have a good night on the rabbits, you'd end up spending between £50 and £100 on ammo. Secondly, you need to have vermin (or the like) listed on your ticket. There's nothing wrong with a rimmy for rabbits. I can't see why on earth you'd use a CF for them, as you're just wasting the meat, as there'll be very little left of them if you get a body/bum shot Edited January 21, 2010 by harfordwmj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hookbones Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 most forces will need to see the inclusion of fox on you permission b4 cf is granted and you will need proof of deer permission on it too provided your in scotland as the calibers you mention cant be used on deer south of the border.. if its put down as just rabbits then forget it as i cant see them accepting that. as for cost it varies as the quality , weights ,types of head and grade of powder can range massively , i found 223 the better bet as there is always cheap factory fodder to fall back on till you have got your loading gear set up and mastered sorry if im telling u how 2 suck eggs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Just a couple of observations on these two replies... If you have a good night on the rabbits, you'd end up spending between £50 and £100 on ammo. Secondly, you need to have vermin (or the like) listed on your ticket. He can relaod either easily for less than 50p each so I'd rate that a very good night on the rabbits, somewhere between 100-200 of them. Factory Wolf 55g HP is available for £18 per 100 so that is even better!! There's nothing wrong with a rimmy for rabbits. I can't see why on earth you'd use a CF for them, as you're just wasting the meat, as there'll be very little left of them if you get a body/bum shot Distance is the potential problem with a rimmy, especially a .22lr, a .223 will take bunnies at 200 yards easily!!! most forces will need to see the inclusion of fox on you permission b4 cf is granted and you will need proof of deer permission on it too provided your in scotland as the calibers you mention cant be used on deer south of the border.. if its put down as just rabbits then forget it as i cant see them accepting that. as for cost it varies as the quality , weights ,types of head and grade of powder can range massively , i found 223 the better bet as there is always cheap factory fodder to fall back on till you have got your loading gear set up and mastered Either calibre can be used on Roe in Scotland but only CWD and Muntjac in England and Wales!! sorry if im telling u how 2 suck eggs Nevertheless, not my first choice of rabbit gun either way and ... "The reason im looking at the two mentioned is that it would allow me to shoot roe aswell" Would probably not be classed as good reason either!! ATB!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 (edited) I can't say that I see distance being a problem for rimfire on rabbits. It's pretty easy to get within 60 yards of a rabbit, it's the next 30 yards when you're using an air-rifle that is tricky. As said above I can't see the point of using any centrefire on rabbits, too much mess and too expensive. Edited January 21, 2010 by Colster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I'm not sure what ranges you are expecting to shoot rabbits at CZ452 but your HMR should be well capable of killing them cleanly at up to (and over depending on your shooting abilities) 150 yards, if you can't get withing that sort of range of rabbits then maybe you are approaching them wrongly! Even if you managed to get a CF on your ticket for rabbits (Which is very doubtful unless you have permission for fox) you will most likely find it is still expensive compared to the HMR, about twice the price for ammo even if you reload your own! If you are in England or Wales you will almost certainly not be allowed a .222 or .223 for roe deer anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 the words overkill spring to mind, yes you can shoot rabbits with a centre fire but there won't be much left, you'll make a lot of noise doing so and really who wants to put 50-100 rounds through a centrefire in an evening? its more like range shooting, plus odds are you'd start heating the barrel up well and truly if you've many about. Keep the rimmy for them then get a centrefire for fox and vermin then you can shoot the occasional one with it but its not a rabbit gun in my eyes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks for the replies I have got vermin and deer on my slot for a CF and just feel that i could replace the HMR quite nicely with one. I agree that an airgun/.22lr is the ideal rabbit gun under most circumstances. It was more a question of price really. Say, you go out for a morning and take a dozen headshots on rabbits,(sell them at £1 each to your game dealer) and you reload your own bullets, would it be that bad? I'd have even thought there would be a tiny profit in it :unsure: I realise that fieldcraft is all good and well but if you sit off a warren they can come out and run right past you if you stay still enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks for the replies I have got vermin and deer on my slot for a CF and just feel that i could replace the HMR quite nicely with one. I agree that an airgun/.22lr is the ideal rabbit gun under most circumstances. It was more a question of price really. Say, you go out for a morning and take a dozen headshots on rabbits,(sell them at £1 each to your game dealer) and you reload your own bullets, would it be that bad? I'd have even thought there would be a tiny profit in it :unsure: I realise that fieldcraft is all good and well but if you sit off a warren they can come out and run right past you if you stay still enough OK mate, lets look at a couple of points you have made here. You agree that an air rifle or a "rimfire" is the best option for rabbits - you have a HMR "Rimfire" which is a perfect option so why do you want to change it for a rifle that is not suitable? If you go out on a morning and shoot a dozen rabbits can you guarantee that every one of them will be a head shot? If they are not there will be near enough nothing left to pick up with a CF. I can not comment too much about a 222 or 223 for rabbits as I havent used one but I did once use my 22-250 to shoot a rabbit and I can tell you all that was left was "Ferret Food" and needed picking up over a wide area in several pieces! Just to give you an idea have a look at this video: Again, you mention Head shot rabbits, even if you could get away with it with a CF you would have to be sure that every rabbit was side on to you where you would most likely take their heads clean off (Very messy) cos if you have one facing you and take it out with a CF I can assure you that as the bullet passes through the head and then down through the body you are likely to skin and gut it all in one go, the resulting mess being a waste of good meat! As for sitting near a warren waiting for the rabbits to come out you might well get away with this method using an air rifle or a modified rimfier but if you use a CF then they will almost stay below ground for the day after the second shot! I am not trying to provoke an argument by saying what I have, I am merely trying to point out reality! You have a 17Hmr that is, in my opinion, the perfect rifle for rabbit shooting, why change it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Firstly, that video is savage :unsure: secondly, change... I agree that all your points are perfectly valid! I was just toying with the idea that if I got a CF it could do all the HMR does and more. But as I secretly thought from the start,(and others have confirmed) its a bit too much! ATB and thanks for the input :unsure: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted January 21, 2010 Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 Thanks for the replies :unsure: I have got vermin and deer on my slot for a CF and just feel that i could replace the HMR quite nicely with one. I agree that an airgun/.22lr is the ideal rabbit gun under most circumstances. It was more a question of price really. Say, you go out for a morning and take a dozen headshots on rabbits,(sell them at £1 each to your game dealer) and you reload your own bullets, would it be that bad? I'd have even thought there would be a tiny profit in it :unsure: I realise that fieldcraft is all good and well but if you sit off a warren they can come out and run right past you if you stay still enough :blink: I kind of see your point but what game dealer is going to give you a £1 for a CF shot bunny? Unless they're paying you to mince them too. Even headshot (is this still at >200yards?) they're still going to be messy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2010 I kind of see your point but what game dealer is going to give you a £1 for a CF shot bunny? Unless they're paying you to mince them too. Even headshot (is this still at >200yards?) they're still going to be messy but why would it matter if the head is messy? and any head shot rabbits with the HMR are missing half their head anyway and no one complains Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colster Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 but why would it matter if the head is messy? and any head shot rabbits with the HMR are missing half their head anyway and no one complains Missing half their head maybe but I would imagine if the rabbit is slightly angled towards you, you'd end up taking most of it's shoulder as well as all of it's head. Depends how you transport them too, ours when shot with an LR or Air don't bleed much so not too much sluicing out to do of game bag/4x4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Never really thought about the game bag afterwards ATB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 (edited) but why would it matter if the head is messy? and any head shot rabbits with the HMR are missing half their head anyway and no one complains You have a valid question there so I will try to answer it for you as best I can. As I said in my previous post a head shot with a 17HMR is fine for rabbits regardless of the range (To within reason) but, and this is the big one, to save making a total mess of the rabbit you would have to have the rabbit sideways on to you every time! This will result in an instant kill which is likely to take part of the head off, no problem as regards to damage to the meat but they can be a bit messy to transport. (I always carry a roll of "Tesco Pedal Bin Bags" in my shooting bag to put rabbits in or a few Heavy duty Bin Bags in the 4X4 for the same reason, so mess is the only problem with head shot rabbits that are side on to you when you shoot them!) The problem comes in when the rabbit is not side on to you, something that you can not always guarantee! If for instance the rabbit is at 45 degrees to you and you hit it in the head the bullet will most likely take the shoulder and sometimes the ribs out making the only part of the rabbit worth saving the saddle and back legs, which for some is not a problem as this is the best meat but a Game Dealer is unlikely to buy them from you! The biggest problem of all is if the rabbit is either facing you or has its back to you. If it is facing you and you hit it in the head with a 17HMR death will be instant but the bullet is more than likely to travel down through the head and in to the body destroying many of the intestines and vital organs on the way, this makes the rabbit terrible to gut and clean and spoils just about all of the meat. (Believe me I have done it and found that the carcass is good for nothing but the ferrets!) Now, if you were to take the same shot with either a .222 or a .223 the bullet would most likely exit through the rear end of the rabbit leaving such a mess that it would not be worth picking up! An even worse situation is when the rabbit has its back to you! Here to take a head shot on a feeding rabbit at lets say 75 yards you only have about half an inch of leway between hitting the top of the rabbit's head and hitting it in the back. If you do manage to hit it in the head and miss the back all well and good, it would be a very good shot, even at 50 yards! If however your aim was just that fractionally low, something that happens to the best of us occasionally, then you are going to destroy just about most of the rabbit, especially if you are using a CF rifle! I hope this has cleared up why it is generally impractical to use anything larger than a 17HMR for rabbit shooting if you intend to either eat or sell the rabbits you shoot! Edited January 22, 2010 by Frenchieboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 Thanks frenchieboy. I appreciate that anything other than a pure head shot will result in a bit of a splat. Similarly, I take all my rabbits with the .17 'side on'. As you say a 'face on' shot makes a mess of the insides and I dont have any ferrets to feed the rabbit to afterwords Mabye a compromise would be the .22 hornet Thanks for all your input,(to be honest I think i'll give the bigger CF's a miss). ATB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 what have you got for your slot for cf at the moment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 .223 at the mo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frenchieboy Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 I never realised that the .222 was cheaper to feed than the 17HMR. What price is the ammo for the .222 (On average)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 we're talking re loading here Frenchie, its ok for smaller numbers but using 50 centrefire rounds in an evening must make the barrel warm to say the least Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plinker Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 i shoot rabbits out past 350yds with a 222 and a ballistics chart, basically because its a challange,i have got hmr and 22lr and clear rabbits with them but its not the same sport. i have head shot rabbits with my 243(whilst out after charlie) before for ferret food and they are not mince if you put it in the right place with the right angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 I shoot .222 at rabbits cheaper and more accurately than with a 17hmr but im not trying to sell them. The only downside is a bit more noise. That's why I was considering the change. How cheaply can you reload the .222,(I'd probably prefer that to a .223 anyway!) ? Generally I don't sell rabbits but if it was really expensive to shoot the gun i'd have considered it an option. i shoot rabbits out past 350yds with a 222 and a ballistics chart, basically because its a challange,i have got hmr and 22lr and clear rabbits with them but its not the same sport.i have head shot rabbits with my 243(whilst out after charlie) before for ferret food and they are not mince if you put it in the right place with the right angle. That's along the lines of what I was thinking of. I really would only be looking at a dozen shots over an hour or so and not 50 odd in a night lamping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 You know, you can use FMJ in a 223 on a rabbit. And you know what, it works. In fact, it makes much less of a mess than an HMR. I know, I've tried it. Your shot placement needs to be bloody good because otherwise you don't kill the rabbit, but it does work. You could also try something like a 64gr deer bullet, or similar. they don't expand much either. Personally, if you are determined, you can head shoot most of the time. You do need to be precise but if you can be bothered, it can be done. I use 22 Hornet as my mainstay bunny gun because I can't be ***** with HMR - each of my permissions also wants Charlie shot, and Hornet costs me the same as HMR as I reload it. Therefore I have an excellent crossover gun (it could also kill small deer, if legal, but hey ho...) and would recommend it. However, 223 is a good tool for rabbits in some situations. 223 gives a useful range, and on some of the land I shoot over, you simply cannot get much under 200 yards because the rabbits have been shot at for years and there is ****** all cover. Hence the additional range. 223 is also useful as a canada goose round, and on some places there's lots of both, so just take the 223, and job done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted January 22, 2010 Report Share Posted January 22, 2010 (edited) There has been a lot of debate here and mixed views of results, and yes, you will get a different result every time by virtue of a tiny difference in shot placement and different bullets, but there is little arguing with this. This bunny took it in the head with a .223 ballistic tip, I seem to recall it was around 180 yards, only problem was the rest of its body was behind it!! It's not posted for sensationalism, but simply to demonstrate what can happen!! PS. I have seen several like this or worse, so ballistic tip centrefires do tend to make a bit of a mess in rabbits! Edited January 22, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wildfowler.250 Posted January 23, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2010 You know, you can use FMJ in a 223 on a rabbit. And you know what, it works. In fact, it makes much less of a mess than an HMR. I know, I've tried it. Your shot placement needs to be bloody good because otherwise you don't kill the rabbit, but it does work. You could also try something like a 64gr deer bullet, or similar. they don't expand much either. Personally, if you are determined, you can head shoot most of the time. You do need to be precise but if you can be bothered, it can be done. I use 22 Hornet as my mainstay bunny gun because I can't be ***** with HMR - each of my permissions also wants Charlie shot, and Hornet costs me the same as HMR as I reload it. Therefore I have an excellent crossover gun (it could also kill small deer, if legal, but hey ho...) and would recommend it. However, 223 is a good tool for rabbits in some situations. 223 gives a useful range, and on some of the land I shoot over, you simply cannot get much under 200 yards because the rabbits have been shot at for years and there is ****** all cover. Hence the additional range. 223 is also useful as a canada goose round, and on some places there's lots of both, so just take the 223, and job done. cheers How cheap can you reload the hornet per round then? Is there a big difference in price between that and the .223? ATB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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