Is anybody bothered

[njc110381]

I hate to say it but what's the point? Just recently there was something in the press about government advisors resigning. No matter what they're faced with they will do what they think is best. Not based on facts, just what they think. Trying to tell them otherwise is a waste of breath!

 

I'd hate to see lead banned. I'm not aware of it causing problems and I've swallowed my fair share of shot and bitten thousands of lead fishing weights when they were around (and I was a child then, so must have been extra vunerable).

 

At the end of the day we are the british public. Just bend over and take it as it's the only option.

[Christopher Graffius]

A brief glance at the history of British shooting demonstrates that we've had a massive impact on our own destinies by caring deeply and working harder to protect the sport. Long may that continue.

 

Christopher

[Salopian]

It will be interesting to view the ongoing debate at Catton Hall BASC Gamekeepers Fair tomorrow and Sunday. Will it be in the Ring?

[mudpatten]

Next weeks Shooting Times headline- "Shock horror probe. BASC does nothing about Icelandic volcanic eruption."

 

Editorial - Despite it being the main breeding ground of the iconic Pinkfooted goose, the BASC appears unwilling to exert pressure on the Icelandic government to bring an end to recent volcanic eruptions. Meanwhile, the CA has stated that it intends to jump up and down noisily in the sure belief that this will bring about an immediate cessation of volcanic activity.

 

A spokesman for the NGO is reported as saying "Whats a volcano?"

 

A friend of mine works at the ST printers and I can assure you this is true!

[crimthan]

Next weeks Shooting Times headline- "Shock horror probe. BASC does nothing about Icelandic volcanic eruption."

 

Editorial - Despite it being the main breeding ground of the iconic Pinkfooted goose, the BASC appears unwilling to exert pressure on the Icelandic government to bring an end to recent volcanic eruptions. Meanwhile, the CA has stated that it intends to jump up and down noisily in the sure belief that this will bring about an immediate cessation of volcanic activity.

 

A spokesman for the NGO is reported as saying "Whats a volcano?"

 

A friend of mine works at the ST printers and I can assure you this is true!

[JRDS]

 

Their stance on Lead has been blown wide open by ST and you find it funny

[crimthan]

Their stance on Lead has been blown wide open by ST and you find it funny

 

 

I find the post above funny. I find nothing funny at all about Shooting Times. As to "their stance on Lead has been blown wide open by ST and you find it funny"

 

Surely you meant Shooting Times and others mis-representation of BASC's stance.

[anser2]

Lets face it the Shooting Times will do anything to get a story to sell magazines. So what if some committee discussed the pros and cons of lead shot. Its what we pay them for to look into the future and anticipate future problems . Its right that they should play devil’s advocate during their discussion. Its what any political organisation would do.

 

 

Perhaps we should be more worried who leaked the story to them. They will have known it would cause BASC problems with its membership so just what are their motives. If they were really against a ban on lead shot come out and show your self and perhaps resign if its that important to you. Ever since a past editor from the Shooting Times has left to join the new countryside hunting and shooting organisation the magazine has had a strong bias towards the latter organisation. Just ask yourselves who is going to gain most from this recent debate , who is looking to poach BASC members and who would benefit from a mole in side the committee of BASC.

 

Its time a lot of people on here took their head out of the sand and saw which way the public opinion is moving. I want my grand children to have the chance to enjoy this great sport and I cant believe that anyone can look at the research papers that have been published and say there is not a potential problem from lead that need looking at very closely. I use lead and do not intend to stop tomorrow , but when and if the evidence becomes overwhelming and the public demands we stop using lead I will be among the first to switch over to exclusive non – toxic steel shot. I have used it and it works fine with 90% of the success of lead . its only at extreme range that lead out performs steel.

 

Are so many in the shooting community so blind that they are not even prepared to experiment with modern good quality steel shells such as Gamebore. Alas it seems so. Several days ago I offered a days pigeon shooting to an experienced steel disbeliever off the forum at harvest time on the condition he posted comments on his success or failure with it ( see the post steel V lead ). Do you know how many shooters have PMed me . A big fat O. So most people on here stick their head in the sand and when the government of the day decided to ban lead ( and in time they will ) our sport becomes unjustifiable because we use toxic shot

[JRDS]

I find the post above funny. I find nothing funny at all about Shooting Times. As to "their stance on Lead has been blown wide open by ST and you find it funny"

 

Surely you meant Shooting Times and others mis-representation of BASC's stance.

 

What planet are you on?

 

Which bit didn't you understand, BASC have not denied any of the ST text is true. Wake up and smell the coffee!

[MC]

Anser,

 

I am not a non believer in steel shot as I have used it for several years to good effect, I would be happy to come and shoot with you and report my findings. I already know what the outcome would be but maybe the doubters will not believe it unless they see photo's and videos etc etc.

 

I know you don't rate them but I have great confidence in Express Supreme Steel 32gr of 4's and would happily use them shooting pigeons. I would also be prepapred to try various other makes.

 

I am not a fan of gamebore cartridges but do have some in the cupboard.

[crimthan]

What planet are you on?

 

Which bit didn't you understand, BASC have not denied any of the ST text is true. Wake up and smell the coffee!

 

 

JRDS. Read back over previous posts. Read BASC web site. Read every statement BASC has made on this issue, rather than keep spouting and cutting & pasting ST's selective mis-reporting of it.

 

But to save you going back to top of thread, here is BASC's position. Once again.

 

"Inaccurate and alarmist reports have appeared in the shooting press and on email concerning BASC's position on lead ammunition. They misrepresent BASC’s position and the current situation.

BASC would like to take the opportunity to put the record straight.

 

The facts of the matter are:

 

•BASC is firmly opposed to any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

•All other shooting organisations support this position.

•BASC and all other shooting organisations agree that the shooting community must be involved in discussions on the future of lead ammunition. Not to be involved is to lose our voice and influence.

•All the shooting organisations have been discussing the latest evidence on lead shot for some time.

•All the shooting organisations agree that shooting should be involved in the lead ammunition advisory group being established by DEFRA to examine scientific evidence on the use of lead ammunition in the UK.

•All the main shooting organisations are supportive of John Swift, the CEO of BASC, taking the Chair.

•The shooting organisations form the largest group on the lead ammunition advisory group. They include BASC, the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the Gun Trade Association and the Countryside Alliance. Other organisations will be asked to contribute in specialist areas.

•The natural conclusion from this is that shooting is well represented and is united on this issue.

 

 

What does this mean for the future of lead ammunition in the UK?

 

Defra has chosen the lowest level of committee, unofficial and industry-driven, to give advice.

 

 

•No political party in the UK has any plans to further restrict lead shot

•The current position of the Food Standards Agency is that the consumption of shot game is not sufficient in the UK to become a public health issue.

•There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that some birds can be poisoned by feeding on shot animals or taking up lead shot as grit.

•The group has been asked to assess the relevance of research for the UK.

•Nothing will happen in the UK for the foreseeable future.

•Please forward this to anyone you know who is involved in shooting.

"

[joke209061]

JRDS. Read back over previous posts. Read BASC web site. Read every statement BASC has made on this issue, rather than keep spouting and cutting & pasting ST's selective mis-reporting of it.

 

But to save you going back to top of thread, here is BASC's position. Once again.

 

"Inaccurate and alarmist reports have appeared in the shooting press and on email concerning BASC's position on lead ammunition. They misrepresent BASC’s position and the current situation.

BASC would like to take the opportunity to put the record straight.

 

The facts of the matter are:

 

•BASC is firmly opposed to any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

•All other shooting organisations support this position.

•BASC and all other shooting organisations agree that the shooting community must be involved in discussions on the future of lead ammunition. Not to be involved is to lose our voice and influence.

•All the shooting organisations have been discussing the latest evidence on lead shot for some time.

•All the shooting organisations agree that shooting should be involved in the lead ammunition advisory group being established by DEFRA to examine scientific evidence on the use of lead ammunition in the UK.

•All the main shooting organisations are supportive of John Swift, the CEO of BASC, taking the Chair.

•The shooting organisations form the largest group on the lead ammunition advisory group. They include BASC, the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the Gun Trade Association and the Countryside Alliance. Other organisations will be asked to contribute in specialist areas.

•The natural conclusion from this is that shooting is well represented and is united on this issue.

 

 

What does this mean for the future of lead ammunition in the UK?

 

Defra has chosen the lowest level of committee, unofficial and industry-driven, to give advice.

 

 

•No political party in the UK has any plans to further restrict lead shot

•The current position of the Food Standards Agency is that the consumption of shot game is not sufficient in the UK to become a public health issue.

•There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that some birds can be poisoned by feeding on shot animals or taking up lead shot as grit.

•The group has been asked to assess the relevance of research for the UK.

•Nothing will happen in the UK for the foreseeable future.

•Please forward this to anyone you know who is involved in shooting.

"

 

 

Just received an email direct from BASC outlining these exact points,

Up till i received this id only heard people moaning about BASC rolling over on the matter.

Hope they keep it in.

Some guns just cant shoot steel.

[mudpatten]

A14X,

 

Hello mate,a few pages back I asked you, since you`re not a BASC member, which organisation represented your viewpoint at national level.

 

Perhaps I`ve missed your answer. If BASC`s standpoint is anathema to you, could you possibly share with us the name of the national body that does have all the answers, and let us know what that policy is.

 

Many thanks in anticipation.

[Moors Man]

Can't belive swift is talking such mumbo jubo come on basc what is your problem!

There's no doubt that Swift has a good grasp of the language required for this sort of thing. Here's a sample: "The group is tasked with identifying any significant threats as well as any perceived threats that are not significant. The group is to advise on options for managing any risks, knowledge gaps and communication issues. It is essential that the sub-groups are as inclusive as possible and balanced and fair in their investigations and findings. At the end of the first year a written progress report will be submitted to Defra and FSA. Our scope is limited to England but the devolved administrations will be kept informed and FSA has a UK-wide remit."

 

Just had this on E-mail from BASC with info on their position in case anyone has not recieved it

 

Moors Man

 

 

Inaccurate and alarmist reports have appeared in the shooting press and on email concerning BASC's position on lead ammunition. They misrepresent BASC’s position and the current situation.

 

BASC would like to take the opportunity to put the record straight.

 

 

 

The facts of the matter are:

 

BASC is firmly opposed to any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

All other shooting organisations support this position.

BASC and all other shooting organisations agree that the shooting community must be involved in discussions on the future of lead ammunition. Not to be involved is to lose our voice and influence.

All the shooting organisations have been discussing the latest evidence on lead shot for some time.

All the shooting organisations agree that shooting should be involved in the lead ammunition advisory group being established by DEFRA to examine scientific evidence on the use of lead ammunition in the UK.

All the main shooting organisations are supportive of John Swift, the CEO of BASC, taking the Chair.

The shooting organisations form the largest group on the lead ammunition advisory group. They include BASC, the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the Gun Trade Association and the Countryside Alliance. Other organisations will be asked to contribute in specialist areas.

The natural conclusion from this is that shooting is well represented and is united on this issue.

 

What does this mean for the future of lead ammunition in the UK?

 

Defra has chosen the lowest level of committee, unofficial and industry-driven, to give advice.

 

No political party in the UK has any plans to further restrict lead shot

The current position of the Food Standards Agency is that the consumption of shot game is not sufficient in the UK to become a public health issue.

There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that some birds can be poisoned by feeding on shot animals or taking up lead shot as grit.

The group has been asked to assess the relevance of research for the UK.

Nothing will happen in the UK for the foreseeable future.

Please forward this email to anyone you know who is involved in shooting.

 

 

 

You can read John Swift's Article on the issue for the next issue of Sporting Gun here: http://www.basc.org.uk/filemanager/root/si...ition_group.pdf

 

 

 

If you would like to discuss any of the issues in more detail, please contact the BASC communications department on 01244 573031 or email pressoff@basc.org.uk

[anser2]

MC you are welcome to join me for a day at the pigeon using steel , but what is needed is someone who does not beleve steel will do a good job and then experiance it first hand. There still has not been any forum lead users brave enough to try it out. My pigeon shooting is about to wind down as the game breeding season is about to start and it will be after the harvest before I restart again. But if you fancy a day on the stubbles IM me nearer the time and we will fix up a date.

 

Bring what ever steel sheels you wish to.

Edited April 17, 2010 by anser2

[MC]

Anser2,

 

I will take you up at that, maybe someone like Al4x will come as well or even one of the real "Woe is me, the end of shooting is nigh" scare mongers will come as well.

[Guest topshot_2k]

MC you are welcome to join me for a day at the pigeon using steel , but what is needed is someone who does not beleve steel will do a good job and then experiance it first hand. There still has not been any forum lead users brave enough to try it out. My pigeon shooting is about to wind down as the game breeding season is about to start and it will be after the harvest before I restart again. But if you fancy a day on the stubbles IM me nearer the time and we will fix up a date.

 

Bring what ever steel sheels you wish to.

 

you bang on about steel doing the job but how can it replace lead in/near woodland? it damages trees, ricochets and litters the countryside in thick plastic wads so no good for me where i shoot.

 

I tried using 32g #4 RC steel and gamebore steel and found it over penetrated the pigeon meaning fewer clean kills. Steel cannot and will never be able to match lead in terms of killing power.

[MC]

you bang on about steel doing the job but how can it replace lead in/near woodland? it damages trees, ricochets and litters the countryside in thick plastic wads so no good for me where i shoot.

 

I tried using 32g #4 RC steel and gamebore steel and found it over penetrated the pigeon meaning fewer clean kills. Steel cannot and will never be able to match lead in terms of killing power.

 

 

When will all you doubters stop harping on about this?

 

Lead damages trees, lead ricochets, lead comes on plastic wads if you choose to buy them like it. You can also get fibre wads in steel shot.

 

Steel may not be able to match lead but and this is a very big BUT. Steel is not the only non toxic available, there are lots of non toxic that can be used in all guns and some of it is BETTER than lead.

 

TMX and Hevi shot far out shoot lead in all ways and yes they are expensive at the moment but if cartridge manufacturers did not have a choice but to load non toxic WORLDWIDE then the prices would have to come down or they would all be out of business as the millions of cartridges sold every year would not get sold anymore.

 

I have used 32 gr of steel in 4's for flighted duck and have never found them to be an issue and would not hasitate to use them on pigeons or driven game. Once you have adjusted to using steel it is better than you think.

[Boromir]

Can I put it simply, BASC have said that lead is bad they may say they are opposed to any further restrictions on lead but with there representatives on here saying that lead is bad for the environment before there research has started it pretty somes it up already.

 

I just say why dont you just save the millions and just ban it and dont bother supporting the probable 80% opposed to any further restrictions on lead.

 

 

Dont believe this topic has gone on for more than 20 pages, you know the ban is coming just a matter of when.

[Christopher Graffius]

Can I put it simply, BASC have said that lead is bad they may say they are opposed to any further restrictions on lead but with there representatives on here saying that lead is bad for the environment before there research has started it pretty somes it up already.

 

I just say why dont you just save the millions and just ban it and dont bother supporting the probable 80% opposed to any further restrictions on lead.

 

 

Dont believe this topic has gone on for more than 20 pages, you know the ban is coming just a matter of when.

 

Nobody with any sense thinks large doses of lead for humans and animals are good! That's not the issue. The issue is not a ban, because nobody with any political power is proposing a ban.

 

The question is whether lead ammunition delivers enough of a dose to damage humans and if the damage that has been shown to some animal species can be tolerated or threatens the species, and if so does that damage outweigh the benefits of shooting lead - or are there a viable alternatives and does the evidence warrant switching to them?

 

The jury is out on all that and the debate continues. The good news is that shooting is well represented by people who will ensure that nothing is done to damage it through ignorance or prejudice.

 

One of the reasons this has gone on for 20 pages is that we care about our shooting and the aim of killing cleanly. Another reason is that various people - for their own self interest rather than the benefit of shooting - have misled others as to the nature of the debate.

 

Christopher

[anser2]

you bang on about steel doing the job but how can it replace lead in/near woodland? it damages trees, ricochets and litters the countryside in thick plastic wads so no good for me where i shoot.

 

In what way does steel do more damage to trees than steel ? being less dence steel does not enter the wood so far as lead. The issue over trees is the potential for damage to chain saws . As for wads you can get fibre wads and photo bio degradable wads for steel. I grew up in the Broads , an area where 100s of wildfowlers shoot over the grazing marshes and despite haveing a number of farming friends none have ever worried about livestock picking up wads. There may be a danger from ricochets , but two of the three ricochets I have experianced were with lead including a shot comming back from a walked up cock pheasants spur 30 yards infront of a line of guns and hitting a gun in the line. The only ricochet i have had from steel ( and I shoot 500 + steel wildfowling \ game shells a season ) was some bounced sideways off a wave while i was trying to shoot a duck skimming the waves. I have never noticed any difference in pellets passing through a bird between lead and steel , unless the range is very close. The major gripe some people have about steel is that it does not penertrate as well as lead , though i have only found this at longish range. The only other issue with steel is your gun needs to be in good condition to handle the higher pressures and its is not suitable for some English gameguns.

Edited April 17, 2010 by anser2

[Christopher Graffius]

On the foreshore my experience is that steel penetrates better than lead but it doesn't deform like lead. The result is much less blood on the exterior of the bird and I often find that steel pellets pass through the bird. I also perceive less lead when shooting steel and consciously reduce range - which may explain the penetration. If our aim is to produce enough trauma in as many vital organs as possible, then lead, because it deforms does this well. That's why you have to go up in load and shot size to deliver the necessary punch with steel. I can remember a decade ago shooting Eley 28gm bismuth 5's at duck. It was a disaster and I blew the remaining cartridges in my collection away at a clay ground a fortnight ago. I've tried tungsten matrix, and liked it - no difference from lead apart from using a bigger load, but BASC will need to pay me more if I'm to change to it for all my shooting! I've never tried hevi-shot but reports are impressive.

 

Shooters' experience with various materials is an important factor in the coming debate and one that I know will be discussed by the committee.

 

Christopher

[Salopian]

Christopher,

Your last post was a very reasoned and informed email.

I detest steel with a passion, because I honestly think it is not a viable alternative to lead. Wildfowling friends who use it invariably use semi-autos which helps to absorb the vicious recoil. Those of my friends who use side by sides get a severe pounding from the recoil but dismiss it by saying that if they get 5 shots off they have had a tremendous flight and the recoil is managable. These people are possibly of the same mentality as boxers who have only had 5 blows to the head per bout!

Any of you interested in doing the Maths would be very alarmed at the recoil effects if you factor in the ejecta weight x 1600fps plus.

For Wildfowling I am sure that ITM and Hevishot are probably the solution.

But for Pigeon shooting and clayshooting I do not think we have an effective environmentally friendly alternative due to the use of plastic wads.

If the Gamebore fibre shotcup wad proves to be effective and becomes readily available at an affordable price perhaps we can move forward.

Lead shot is not banned, it may not be banned if the scientific evidence is not there and we take reasonable measures to safeguard our sport.

What we don't want is any organisation making statements that due to mounting concerns about lead pollution we should advise the membership to consider using lead alternatives.

Obviously I do not think that BASC can fund independant research on its own, but when someone expresses concern about the effects of lead shot upon the environment and wildlife we should ask them to please identify their source, data etc., here in the UK.

I personally have no problem with the the US findings but feel they are at this moment in time not relevant to the UK. If you have had any dealings with the US you will realise that you are dealing with people that are mentally challenged. After all did they not practically wipe out their own nation? The Native American Indian.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Salopian

[JRDS]

JRDS. Read back over previous posts. Read BASC web site. Read every statement BASC has made on this issue, rather than keep spouting and cutting & pasting ST's selective mis-reporting of it.

 

But to save you going back to top of thread, here is BASC's position. Once again.

 

"Inaccurate and alarmist reports have appeared in the shooting press and on email concerning BASC's position on lead ammunition. They misrepresent BASC’s position and the current situation.

BASC would like to take the opportunity to put the record straight.

 

The facts of the matter are:

 

•BASC is firmly opposed to any unwarranted attempts to further restrict lead shot.

•All other shooting organisations support this position.

•BASC and all other shooting organisations agree that the shooting community must be involved in discussions on the future of lead ammunition. Not to be involved is to lose our voice and influence.

•All the shooting organisations have been discussing the latest evidence on lead shot for some time.

•All the shooting organisations agree that shooting should be involved in the lead ammunition advisory group being established by DEFRA to examine scientific evidence on the use of lead ammunition in the UK.

•All the main shooting organisations are supportive of John Swift, the CEO of BASC, taking the Chair.

•The shooting organisations form the largest group on the lead ammunition advisory group. They include BASC, the Game and Wildlife Conservation Trust, the Gun Trade Association and the Countryside Alliance. Other organisations will be asked to contribute in specialist areas.

•The natural conclusion from this is that shooting is well represented and is united on this issue.

 

 

What does this mean for the future of lead ammunition in the UK?

 

Defra has chosen the lowest level of committee, unofficial and industry-driven, to give advice.

 

 

•No political party in the UK has any plans to further restrict lead shot

•The current position of the Food Standards Agency is that the consumption of shot game is not sufficient in the UK to become a public health issue.

•There is a growing body of evidence that suggests that some birds can be poisoned by feeding on shot animals or taking up lead shot as grit.

•The group has been asked to assess the relevance of research for the UK.

•Nothing will happen in the UK for the foreseeable future.

•Please forward this to anyone you know who is involved in shooting.

"

 

What you fail to say is that the article in ST is not false and is not mis-reporting as you quote, it is actual minutes and quotes from meetings which clearly show BASC's real stance.

 

BASC are very obviously trying to keep hold of members hence their public PC rhetoric whilst the ST article clearly shows their real stance.

 

For me they shouldn't be chairing the panel and are obviously a choice of their pals DEFRA and the RSPB, end off.

[Christopher Graffius]

What you fail to say is that the article in ST is not false and is not mis-reporting as you quote, it is actual minutes and quotes from meetings which clearly show BASC's real stance.

 

BASC are very obviously trying to keep hold of members hence their public PC rhetoric whilst the ST article clearly shows their real stance.

 

For me they shouldn't be chairing the panel and are obviously a choice of their pals DEFRA and the RSPB, end off.

 

You're misrepresenting the ST article. Even that didn't claim that a private discussion in an unelected advisory committee with no policy making powers represented BASC's actual stance. Given BASC's repeated public statements on this issue the evidence actually suggests that the advisory committee was at odds with BASC's view.

 

John Swift's chairmanship of the panel was approved by all the shooting organisations that discussed the committee.

 

Christopher