Dispelling a myth about shooting into the air!

[pandamonia]

Im frankly getting so tired of hearing grumpy old men telling people you are an idiot for shotting a 22lr into the air, its unsafe bla bla bla.

 

Time and time again i have heard people jump on others for shooting vertically pigeons out of roosts.

 

its not something i have done since i got a shotgun which works fine for that job but it made me think about it and if this is just another British load of bo!!ox that we seem to dream up. you only have to look on american forums and there are people shooting things with a 223 out of trees.

 

Im sure you all heard about that man that got killed from a 22lr bullet from 1.5 miles away who got hit in the head? - yeh that old wives tale! the one where the details change every time you hear it! and coincidentally the distance matches the warning on the side of a 22lr ammo box

 

There is a very accurate scientific formula that can work out the terminal velocity of a object depending on its weight and aerodynamics. its pretty complex but basically the long and short of it is..

 

if you shoot a 22lr at 90 degrees the bullet will travel vertical till it starts to fall and tumble 40 grains is about 2.5 grams and even at best this could generate about 10ft lbs of energy. but according to a test carried out on a penny weighing in at 2.5 grams it only generated 4ft lbs of energy due to wind and air pressure.

 

to put this into perspective some hail stones in this country weigh more than this and travel from higher up and are also much more dense than soft lead.

 

Now if you shoot at 45 degrees this can have some very serious issues since this is just about optimum for distance and speed and retained power. - This is a very dumb thing to do and could result in serious injury.

 

i think people get the two things confused and its being really annoying me lately. i have heard people go off on some about shooting vertical when they happily shoot their FAC airguns into trees with 30 grain pellets at 45 degree angles which in my opinion is far more dangerous than vertical shooting a 22lr.

 

what is your genuine opinion on this matter? i dont want to hear politically correct answers just what you think.

 

 

a little more science and less story telling wouldnt go a miss in this sport.

[night owl]

do you watch a program called mythbusters on sky discovery they tried this myth and confirmed your post they tried with a different range of calibers and they were all leathall unless the head came down perfectly straight even a couple of dec of and it was leathell

[pandamonia]

i do watch that but i must have missed that episode.

 

i can imagine a 100 grain full metal jacket would hurt a lot more but seriously a round nose 22lr will just tumble and maybe bruise you, and damn you gotta be unlucky to get hit at all in the countryside!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUS89-_fbtk

 

here is the penny one which weighs 2.5 grams

Edited April 3, 2010 by pandamonia

[lineshooter]

We were in Florida for Christmas and New Year, and there were warnings on the news channels coming up to New Years eve asking people not to fire guns up in the air on the night.

 

There had been a fatality in 2008, when someone was hit on the head by a stray bullet, it didnt mention calibre but I suppose it was bigger than a .22.

[Ozzy Fudd]

i think this is one of those topics that will get deleted

 

i understand where youre coming from, and the science backs it up i suppose, but to me its the same as never pointing a loaded gun at someone - your finger might be nowhere near the trigger and the safety catch is be on, but its still too much of a risk so you just dont do it.

[pandamonia]

Yeh that comes down to people also shooting them across the air and not straight up into the air. But yeh most people shoot .38 cal or .44 cal bullets out of handguns lol

[nipper]

It may be as rare as hens teeth.

But I dont want to be the one trying to explain to the police that its OK because the Mythbusters did it on tele !lol

 

Whether it falling shotgun pellets or bullets , Joe public will make a right sound about getting

------------ SHOT!!! -------------

 

Common sense will give you the answer .

[Chard]

This isn't "dispelling a myth" - it's you spouting your opinion.

 

If you think we should trust some inbred retard cockhead to start measuring how many degrees his angle of fire is, I would suggest you think it through again

[Harnser]

We have had this one before . Basicly , any object free falling from any height can only fall at a maximum speed of around about 125 miles per hour . The weight of the object falling being the most important factor as to whether or not it could be fatal . Any standard bullet or shot gun pellet free falling and hitting you on the head would not be fatal , however a 56 pound weight or munglers wallet free falling and hitting you on the head would kill you .

Harnser .

Edited April 3, 2010 by Harnser

[pandamonia]

We were in Florida for Christmas and New Year, and there were warnings on the news channels coming up to New Years eve asking people not to fire guns up in the air on the night.

 

There had been a fatality in 2008, when someone was hit on the head by a stray bullet, it didnt mention calibre but I suppose it was bigger than a .22.

 

 

i think this is one of those topics that will get deleted

 

i understand where youre coming from, and the science backs it up i suppose, but to me its the same as never pointing a loaded gun at someone - your finger might be nowhere near the trigger and the safety catch is be on, but its still too much of a risk so you just dont do it.

 

i wouldnt put those 2 things in the same catagory at all. one has the potential to kill someone and the other is like throwing a bullet at someone off the top of a building and calling that shooting them.

 

a cocked bolt that is faulty could release the firing pin and go off and kill someone but a falling bullet is limited by the laws of physics.

[pandamonia]

This isn't "dispelling a myth" - it's you spouting your opinion.

 

If you think we should trust some inbred retard cockhead to start measuring how many degrees his angle of fire is, I would suggest you think it through again

 

are those the same inbred retard cockheads that were given firearms tickets in the first place?

 

plus its not my opinion since i backed it up with fact?

[nipper]

"" but a falling bullet is limited by the laws of physics."" WRONG!

 

"" a falling bullet is limited by the **** ! that fired it up there in the first place ""

[pandamonia]

"" but a falling bullet is limited by the laws of physics."" WRONG!

 

"" a falling bullet is limited by the **** ! that fired it up there in the first place ""

 

with nothing to back that up i take it your just of the opinion that its wrong cus you say it is?

 

In france there are hardly any rules about shooting most calibres, a friend i know bought a house there and what he didnt realise was that every sunday he lived next to a clay shooting club and got peppered with lead shot and the police said they wouldnt do anything!

 

yet again this is a british thing isnt it

Edited April 3, 2010 by pandamonia

[Blunderbuss]

There are several documented cases of deaths and injuries caused by stray bullets. The UK is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, we are never far from habitation and other people and firing a rifle anywhere other than into a safe backstop is reckless and criminal.

 

Your science sucks. Hail stones denser than lead? I don't think so I haven't checked your maths but you claim a falling .22 bullet has 10 ft lb of energy, only 2 foot pounds below the legal limit with an air rifle?. Would you let me shoot you in the top of the head point blank with a 10 ft lb air rifle? The penny analogy is irrelevant as that is far less aerodynamic than any bullet. A bullet will retain much more energy and could inflict serious injury. However lets stick with your flawed penny analogy for a moment longer, just 4 foot pounds you say? The energy generated by dropping a 1 pound weight from 4 feet? Again I ask, on your head? A childs?

 

The advice has stood the test of time and is valid. I hope you never get the chance to influence any youngsters or any one new to shooting.

Edited April 3, 2010 by Blunderbuss

[nipper]

And we wonder why ANTI'S etc want us to have qualifications , shooting tests , best practise guides !

 

Responsible shooting and common sense is what the scientists left out !!!!

 

Those grumpy old men could save you loosing your FAC one day !

 

But of course , You know better ?

[pandamonia]

if you read up i said that i dont shoot up but i was refering to people making comments and their lack of anything fact based. i personally have never seen a story about someone dying from a falling bullet.

 

if you watch that myth busters video they fire a penny at maximum velocity that 2.5 grams can travel from a free fall and it didnt even break the skin. a 40 grain 22lr is 2.5 grams and at maximum speed it is 64mph and this wasnt enough to even hurt them more than a sting. and this was fired with the edge facing down.

 

also the 10ft lbs was the theoretical maximum but air pressure, lift and wind resistance plays a huge part in the velocity.

[pandamonia]

And we wonder why ANTI'S etc want us to have qualifications , shooting tests , best practise guides !

 

Responsible shooting and common sense is what the scientists left out !!!!

 

Those grumpy old men could save you loosing your FAC one day !

 

But of course , You know better ?

 

The point i was making is that if the science behind the rights and wrong doesnt back up what people say. then how can it be valid.

 

no matter what you "THINK" generally the facts behind things should make up the rights and wrongs

[humperdingle]

if you shoot a 22lr at 90 degrees the bullet will travel vertical till it starts to fall and tumble 40 grains is about 2.5 grams and even at best this could generate about 10ft lbs of energy. but according to a test carried out on a penny weighing in at 2.5 grams it only generated 4ft lbs of energy due to wind and air pressure.

.22lr 40 grain bullets don't have the same ballistic coefficient as a penny!

 

Therefore, 10ft lbs approx... I wouldn't want to be the dumb *** whose rifle had been traced, and locked-up after causing damage to either property or life.

 

I'd say if you ask your firearms officer, he'd tell you to ensure you knew the backstop into which your bullet will land. If this to you is "Somewhere over there", then you need to ask yourself if you're "Fit to be entrusted".

[Blunderbuss]

i personally have never seen a story about someone dying from a falling bullet

 

 

First one I found on google, not a .22 granted - but from your myth buster quack science, even a 7.62 short bullet fired into the air would be spent by the time it fell from the sky right?

[pandamonia]

.22lr 40 grain bullets don't have the same ballistic coefficient as a penny!

 

Therefore, 10ft lbs approx... I wouldn't want to be the dumb *** whose rifle had been traced, and locked-up after causing damage to either property or life.

 

I'd say if you ask your firearms officer, he'd tell you to ensure you knew the backstop into which your bullet will land. If this to you is "Somewhere over there", then you need to ask yourself if you're "Fit to be entrusted".

 

BC isnt very important to a free falling bullet as much as weight of the object is. 65mph is the fastest speed something of that weight can travel from gravity and 35mph is the minimum regardless of aerodynamics.

 

people throw cricket balls faster than this which are much harder and heavier than any 40grain lead slug.

 

its just something to think about thats all.

 

Not everyone is a sheep that follows orders of another you know. Some people question the status quo.

[Blunderbuss]

Falling Bullet Injuries

 

People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

 

A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]

 

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[8] A bullet traveling at only 150 feet per second (46 m/s) to 170 feet per second (52 m/s) can penetrate human skin,[9] and at less than 200 feet per second (60 m/s) it can penetrate the skull.[10] A bullet that does not penetrate the skull may still result in an intracranial injury.[11]

 

In 2005, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) ran education campaigns on the dangers of celebratory gunfire in Serbia and Montenegro.[12] In Serbia, the campaign slogan was "every bullet that is fired up, must come down."[13]

[pandamonia]

First one I found on google, not a .22 granted - but from your myth buster quack science, even a 7.62 short bullet fired into the air would be spent by the time it fell from the sky right?

 

i think the obvious question is around exactly where the bullet came from, if you read up i said that 45 degree shooting is stupid and dangerous but vertical was theoretically no more dangerous than dropping the bullet off a building.

 

please dont get the two things confused.

[humperdingle]

Not everyone is a sheep that follows orders of another you know. Some people question the status quo.

Fair enough. I just hope you manage to retain your cert whilst doing it.

[pandamonia]

Falling Bullet Injuries

 

People are injured, sometimes fatally, when bullets discharged into the air fall back down. The mortality rate among those struck by falling bullets is about 32%, compared with about 2% to 6% normally associated with gunshot wounds.[5] The higher mortality is related to the higher incidence of head wounds from falling bullets.

 

A study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) found that 80% of celebratory gunfire-related injuries are to the head, feet, and shoulders.[6] In the U.S. Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, about two people die and about 25 more are injured each year from celebratory gunfire on New Year's Eve, the CDC says.[3] Between the years 1985 and 1992, doctors at the King/Drew Medical Center in Los Angeles, California, treated some 118 people for random falling-bullet injuries. Thirty-eight of them died.[7] Kuwaitis celebrating in 1991 at the end of the Gulf War by firing weapons into the air caused 20 deaths from falling bullets.[7]

 

Firearms expert Julian Hatcher studied falling bullets and found that .30 caliber rounds reach terminal velocities of 300 feet per second (90 m/s) and larger .50 caliber bullets have a terminal velocity of 500 feet per second (150 m/s).[8] A bullet traveling at only 150 feet per second (46 m/s) to 170 feet per second (52 m/s) can penetrate human skin,[9] and at less than 200 feet per second (60 m/s) it can penetrate the skull.[10] A bullet that does not penetrate the skull may still result in an intracranial injury.[11]

 

In 2005, the International Action Network on Small Arms (IANSA) ran education campaigns on the dangers of celebratory gunfire in Serbia and Montenegro.[12] In Serbia, the campaign slogan was "every bullet that is fired up, must come down."[13]

 

 

Thats pretty good stuff. anyone got any idea how you work out the FPS of a 40 grain 22lr falling from the sky? this is obviously a much smaller and lighter bullet than your typical handgun and assault rifle calibre's mentioned above.

 

a 700 FPS airsoft pellet travels fast but due to its limited weight only stings you

[Blunderbuss]

please dont get the two things confused.

 

Please don't patronise me