marlin.45 Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) Just received back my FAC variation from the local powers that be and I had included a desire for a .243 with sound mod for fox control as I am aiming to take my DSC1 in around 6 months so it seemed a bit daft to buy a 'smaller' fox calibre now and then a deer rifle later. FLO came around and could see no problem with that and would make the recommendation as I have suitable land as well. Just got the the ticket back and yes there is the .243/mod/expanding ammo but I can only use the .243 on fox when I am stalking deer (with an accompanying experienced staker until DSC1 - understand that). For example looking for deer and spot a fox. Then I can dispatch. Contacted the office to be told it's 'home office guidance'. Sounds like a crock to me and has anyone else had similar issues? They had no problem with an open ticket on .45Colt for fox after all. Just thought I would bounce this one around before I contact BASC legal. :< Edited December 2, 2005 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 I think this falls into the 'depends where you live catagory' Where I live they like dual purpose rifles, in other parts of the country they don't. Obviously, a .243 is a Fox calibre, it is also a Deer legal calibre, and would make an ideal dual purpose gun. These days some regions do not like/let you shoot deer unles you can prove you have been guided and shot some, or completed a DSC1 - sometimes both! Supervisory FAC's are becoming a little too common these days, so I am glad I got mine when I did I don't think that is Home Office Guidlines, download the bible and have read through it, if you can't find it on the web drop me a pm with your email address and I will email you a copy. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Tell them to **** right off,it states that it "Guidance" not gospel,not law. I just got my renewal/variation and it clearly states-6.5x55 rifle (conditions) A10 and condition A10 states"The firearm and expanding ammunition SHALL be used for fox and deer control and zeroing on any land over ...........blah. This also applies to the .222 I have,and 5yr ago no one wanted to know if you had a DSC 1/2 DMQ or if you were a member of the tufty club,so I don`t see why you should now they`re just squeezing us to see if we`ve got a spine or not :< . Get in touch with the BASC as they were invaluable with mine,apparently having stress makes you an unhinged alcoholic liable to crack at any moment,and they do carry a lot of clout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted December 2, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) Stu/H, Well to start with I dropped a mail over to my FLO who totally agreed with my comments, and supported me fully. It turns out that the administrator who processes applications is not very up with the ley of the land as far as guidance goes. As you say H, it is guidance and he is advising that I am not restricted with the .243, at least for fox. It now turns out that their mamanger who makes the final decision is on sick leave and should be back next week. He promisese to put pressure on and I know him so take him at his word. If I hear nowt next week then BASC it is and I know how they get the various police areas to play ball Stu, Land around here is rural and is mainly taken up with MOD training areas so calibre restrictions are not normally an issue so we should see a quick solution? (As long as the squaddies keep their heads down) Watch this space? Edited December 2, 2005 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 (edited) Careful you don't shoot any of those Great Bustards down there Marlin The sqauddies will know what to do, they will be used to being shot at by the yanks :*) Edited December 5, 2005 by stuartp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted December 2, 2005 Report Share Posted December 2, 2005 Marlin, tell your FEO that the condition to “Shoot foxes whilst stalking deer” is absolutely no good to you as it will prevent you from shooting foxes at night. The condition will mean that unless you are shooting deer, then you can’t actually shoot foxes, and as it is illegal to shoot deer at night then you would have no defence in law if you were caught lamping. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted December 12, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Watch this space Gem. Looks like it will be resolved by the end of the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted December 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 (edited) Well, here's an update. :< Had an e-mail from the FEO/FLO today stating that his superior will not waive at all from her stance that the tie between fox permission and deer stays for a .243 rifle. She will not shift on this or my request to include pest control to open it up to other game with lighter bullet weights etc. As I have said before he is fully behind all of my comments and does not support her 'limitations'. So much for him being the technical advisor then if he is overruled? Obviously he has been told by her to stop the dialogue with me as his involvement is getting personal as he only lives around the corner. So I have agreed with his comments and I will now deal direct with his superior. Mail sent to BASC firearms with an outline of the issue this afternoon. We will see what they say next week. This is mainly a principle stand as they have already said that the limitation will be lifted once the DSC1 has been passed. But why should I have to pass this to shoot fox with one particular rifle? There was no problem for a permit for a .45 Colt rifle for fox after all. Edited December 16, 2005 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyCM Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Sounds like a crock to me Yep, to me too. I have .223 for vermin/fox (unfilled) .243 for fox & deer (and use as much as I can, thanks) 7mm for fox & deer (unfilled, but looking), so I can take foxes with all I need & you can't ! My real need was being out stalking and then looking to lamp after - I did not want to take two rifles & leave one in the car did I, obvious eh ! I took BASC's advice before I put in the variation, it was worth it - all went smoothly. Good luck in sorting out the "superior" AndyCM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zapp Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 The sqauddies will know what to do, they will be used to being shot at by the yanks :*) Ha! Very true! As my wife's grandad, who was in the Rifle Brigade in north africa, sicily and Italy says: "When we fired, the Germans ducked. When the Germans fired, we ducked. When the Yanks fired, EVERYONE ducked!" :thumbs: Pete Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted December 20, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 (edited) Well I spoke with BASC firearms and they suggest to not rock the boat for now. Wait until mid next year when I take DSC1 which should lift both deer and fox restrictions anyway. Their thinking is that as they have allowed .45 Colt for fox without limitations that was prob an error and based the .243 limits on the fact that my past 10 years shooting on ticket has either been with a shotgun or fullbore on range. I'll go with their experience I think and get the cert and play from there. Edited December 21, 2005 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted December 20, 2005 Report Share Posted December 20, 2005 Ah....so the BASC recommended that you take the DSC1 (at a cost of @ £250, and through them no doubt) and then to apply again next year. What a wonderful way to get someone to pay through the nose to get a deer calibre rifle. Then I suppose they will then recommend the DSC 2 (@ £300) followed by another couple of hundred quid for “Accredited witnesses” and then, of course, the food hygiene course (another £120) before asking you to bung another £15 a year to keep everything topped up. I thought that our shooting organisations were supposed to look after or interests. But! between the Proof Houses charging an arm-and-a-leg for unnecessary work, and our shooting organisations charging the earth for something that should be provided as cheaply as possible in order to draw in more shooters, we are gradually being forced out of the market in order to make way for the wealthier clients. I can see a time where the likes of myself will be forced out of shooting because I won’t be able to afford it any more. We don’t need legislation to kill shooting…..just leave it to our representatives. They are doing a far better job in forcing people out, by making it too expensive to continue. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted December 21, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2005 (edited) They made no comments on who should be used for the DSC course and DSC1 is exempt from the food hygene DMQ. I would probably use the BDS anyway as their HQ is relatively local. But from what I can gather the new FAC's seem to have more limits on new applications for deer legal/high velocity non-rimfire calibres now. DSC1 seems to satisfy the piece of paper society that we now live it Makes some sense if you have zero experience but then if you have years of it how do you quantify? Saying that the piece of paper means sqwat against your real ability just means you can pass a test in an a/c and heated classroom. All a crock! Edited December 21, 2005 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Very confusing. So say if i lived in the UK and was licenced for a .223 and wanted to shoot Roe in Scotland all of a sudden, would that be not allowed if my rifle was for foxes and vermin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Ok, get it now. I would have to put Roe deer in scotland when i apply, am i right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markbivvy Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Hi Fister some very good point you make there.i have said before if you let the licensing department give you the run around they will. i found the basc no better when i needed them. this bit. You could also ask what the **** a DSC course will teach you about shooting safely at night i believe the basc are running courses on night shooting right now, and at this time are voluntary. but how long before this is made compulsory, for a few hundred nicker. as Gemini said common or garden shooters will be out priced. and we will get no help from the people that are paid to support us. it wont be long before you need a fsc(fox shooting certificate) to go out at night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted January 2, 2006 Report Share Posted January 2, 2006 Cheers Fister. You seem to know your stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 (edited) Anyone have a link to the home office guidance related to rifles/fox permission etc. After reading your recent posts I think I will pick this one up and run with it again - at minimum to get in writing that all restrictions will be lifted after DSC1. Cheers, Paul Edited January 3, 2006 by marlin.45 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Fox 13.23 Common rifle cartridges considered suitable for the shooting of foxes range from .17 Remington, and .22 Hornet to .22 -250 and .220 Swift, though there is a wide range of suitable similar calibres commercially available. In windy areas, where heavier bullets aid accurate shooting, or if applicants wish to use one rifle for shooting both deer and foxes they may choose a rifle in 6mm (.243/.244) or 6.5mm (.264) calibre. .22 Rimfire is generally too low-powered to be used against fox except at short range, but may reasonably be permitted for use against such quarry in certain circumstances. However, sole use against fox would not normally be sufficient “good reason” to acquire such a rifle (see paragraph 13.15). Combination shot gun/rifles should have the rifled barrel in a similar calibre. Expanding ammunition should be authorised for shooting foxes. Those involved in shooting foxes will normally be authorised to possess up to 250 rounds and acquire 200 at any given time, but consideration should though be given to each shooter’s individual circumstances, particularly where re-loaders are acquiring missiles. See also paragraph 13.14 on allowing applicant’s flexibility to reasonably shoot other species on named land. 13.24 It is desirable that new applicants should have some previous experience of the safe use of firearms before using such rifles. G.M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Ok, get it now. I would have to put Roe deer in scotland when i apply, am i right? Hi Frank, I have got 'Roe in Scotland' for my .223 as my FLO said he always wants a primary and secondry reason for granting variations. I never intend to use it for that, but I thought it may be usefull to have to pre-empt the law for smaller deer changing in England. That's an interesting point! If/when the laws changes in England will we all have to apply for varitions to to our FAC's to state specifically we can shoot the smaller deer species with .22 centrefires??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marlin.45 Posted January 3, 2006 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Gems, Is that direct from the home office guidance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Yup! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dunkield Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 He reads it every night before going to bed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 Thanks Stuart for that. If i say, decided to do a bit of roe stalking in scotland, would i have to go threw the same procedure and apply for a UK firearms licence, or, would my irish licence do? Is their a visitors permit or something in them lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted January 3, 2006 Report Share Posted January 3, 2006 This is mainly a principle stand as they have already said that the limitation will be lifted once the DSC1 has been passed. Marlin, the police cannot make you take the DSC-1 as a condition for your cert. I have just being through all this, but it was the opposite way round, where as the local plod tried to make conditions on my cert. Needless to say, he was shot down in flames when phone the HQ & spoke to the head kiddie. After shooting for over 35yrs he wanted to restrict my cert to Fox only with the 243, & I had to gain experience in his eyes before Deer would be amended to the 243. Even after explaining that I had stalking under my belt years ago in Scotland, he was not having it. Get on the phone & ask to speak direct to the head of the dept, & voice your opinion, what have you to lose. Makes me think that if the law changes so the 22 centrefire can be used for Roe, what these plod will come up with next. Good post Gemini concerning BASC, they seem to want to take the easy route with the less hassle. Bazooka Joe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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