Open Certificate

[mick miller]

I know I'm opening myself up to a whole host of varying opinions on this but...

 

I've just got my certificate back, which is now open for all calibres .243 and under. Now my question is on renewal, which is many moons away, do I need to specify land or does the open condition assume that you can use a rifle on any land on which you have permission without needing to provide evidence of that permission?

 

Am I making sense? In other words, when a certificate is closed you HAVE to supply evidence of where the firearms are to be used, and that land has to have been cleared for those calibres. With an open ticket you are responsible for making those decisions for yourself and therefore any land you consider suitable and have permission to shoot over would suffice? No?

[Dunkield]

You may get postcode lottery answers here, but my certificate is open for all calibres and I had to provide evidence of land for each calibre on renewal.

Having said that, I got the impression it was a paperwork excercise as when I showed him the first permission letter he asked if he could just stick all calibres down against that.

[Browning]

On renewal you have to supply named permission for at least one piece of land that is suitable for the calibers that you wish to shoot.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Browning

[mick miller]

I thought as much, and thanks for your reply. I have one permission that I know is cleared up to .270, so rather than providing them all I'll just have to send in that one, that's going to save on time and printer ink both!

[al4x]

if you're open I don't think the land even has to be cleared just that you have permission. With firearms you have to show need to posses them hence putting down land you can shoot over

[DaveK]

I had to provide written permission for each calibre and what I was allowed to shoot with it, from a landowner or landowners who's land was cleared for the calibre. Makes a total mockery of having an open ticket and what landowner is going to know what rifle can be used for what quarry? Totally unnecessary and probably damned irritating to the landowner (and maybe that's why some FLO's make you do it).

[Dekers]

if you're open I don't think the land even has to be cleared just that you have permission. With firearms you have to show need to posses them hence putting down land you can shoot over

 

 

Thats about the way it is, the problem is interpretation (as always) by different regions!

[Mr_Logic]

You will always need to show you have somewhere to use a firearm, but with an open ticket life is much easier. I declare formally one chunk of land and leave it at that - they know I have several permissions, but open ticket means all is well!

[mick miller]

Thanks for all your replies. I'm opting for the one chunk approach too.

[kdubya]

If you change your primary land at your renewal, then if the land you submit is not already on the register it WILL have to be cleared regardless if you have an open ticket or not, you still have to prove a need.

 

KW

[Redgum]

Yep, agree with the one chunk theory for the biggest calibre as all the rest will fall below it, of course you will need the written permission.

[dunganick]

Of course there is no reason that a .308 is anymore dangerous than a .222, however as the FEO's seem to believe there is, your point is a valid one.

 

I personally dont have to list land on renewal for my open ticket. All i had to do was name drop some land when discussing with the FEO what land i could shoot deer on (as i applied for a deer calibre on my last renewal). I do still need to list a club though, which is even more pointless imho.

[Dekers]

If you change your primary land at your renewal, then if the land you submit is not already on the register it WILL have to be cleared regardless if you have an open ticket or not, you still have to prove a need.

 

KW

 

 

Perhaps another regional thing, as far as I am aware none of my land is specifically cleared for .308 (which I use), I know some is up to .243, I have NEVER had any issues at variation or renewal, and not a single piece of my land has EVER been checked for me!

[kdubya]

 

Perhaps another regional thing, as far as I am aware none of my land is specifically cleared for .308 (which I use), I know some is up to .243, I have NEVER had any issues at variation or renewal, and not a single piece of my land has EVER been checked for me!

 

 

may not have been checked for you? your primary land must already be on the register as suitable if its not it MUST be checked

 

KW

[Dekers]

 

Perhaps another regional thing, as far as I am aware none of my land is specifically cleared for .308 (which I use), I know some is up to .243, I have NEVER had any issues at variation or renewal, and not a single piece of my land has EVER been checked for me!

 

 

may not have been checked for you? your primary land must already be on the register as suitable if its not it MUST be checked

 

KW

 

I accept that some land I shoot on may have been checked historically and I have no knowlede of this, but I am at odds with your statement, if by any chance this is the case then there is a glaring loophole which I have walked through for some time.

 

Kindly point me in the direction of the legislation that refers to the highlighted part of your response above please!

 

Cheers

[Redgum]

You must have an open ticket then Dekers but when your license comes up for renewal you must give details of a permission that has been checked by the chief of police for the calibre or higher than the rifle you will be using on it. Its the same for all of us, unless you live outside the UK of course.

[Dekers]

You must have an open ticket then Dekers but when your license comes up for renewal you must give details of a permission that has been checked by the chief of police for the calibre or higher than the rifle you will be using on it. Its the same for all of us, unless you live outside the UK of course.

 

 

My FAC is Open and I have had numerous variations/renewals and my land has never been checked for me and never questioned to the best of my knowledge, and there is plenty of it that would never get police cleared for larger calibres that I shoot perfectly legally.

 

This is the point made by other posts here, if you have an Open FAC you get to make the call yourself, there is seemingly no need for any police checks of any land, simply the fact that you do have a requirement/land.

 

That is why I have asked for the legislation that backs up the statement below!

 

your primary land must already be on the register as suitable if its not it MUST be checked

 

People commonly make legal/factual statements because "they heard it somewhere", someone please show me the legislation.

 

Cheers

Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers

[matty1967]

hi

when i renewed recently, although i have an open cert ,i filled the form in to say all sporting vermin control rifles on my main permission and didnt specify calibers etc. mind you it was wiltshire and they seem to have one of the most helpfull forces

matt

[DaveK]

That is why I have asked for the legislation that backs up the statement below!

 

 

Cheers

 

Forget the legislation, your local FLD will apply the guidance as it sees fit and decide what constitutes good reason in their area. If they decide that you need to do something to justify their renewing your ticket then you'll do it mate. They grant and renew the certificate and they'll decide what they'll accept as good reason to keep it. None of us like it, all of us are stuck with it, the ones that don't get hit with it are lucky (I'm sure they soon will).

 

It's said too often on here that some FLD's are good and some are not so good and some are positively anal. If all forces applied the rules appropriately we wouldn't need the shooting organisations to defend us and argue our case.

 

West Yorks can blow hot and cold. Lorraines last renewal was straightforward and when the FEO asked for proof of somewhere to shoot he followed it up with "Oh, it doesn't matter you've got an open ticket". When the same guy came out to me I had to jump through all the hoops. Go figure.

[Dekers]

If you change your primary land at your renewal, then if the land you submit is not already on the register it WILL have to be cleared regardless if you have an open ticket or not, you still have to prove a need.

 

KW

 

 

 

Perhaps another regional thing, as far as I am aware none of my land is specifically cleared for .308 (which I use), I know some is up to .243, I have NEVER had any issues at variation or renewal, and not a single piece of my land has EVER been checked for me!

 

 

You must have an open ticket then Dekers but when your license comes up for renewal you must give details of a permission that has been checked by the chief of police for the calibre or higher than the rifle you will be using on it. Its the same for all of us, unless you live outside the UK of course.

 

 

My FAC is Open and I have had numerous variations/renewals and my land has never been checked for me and never questioned to the best of my knowledge, and there is plenty of it that would never get police cleared for larger calibres that I shoot perfectly legally.

 

This is the point made by other posts here, if you have an Open FAC you get to make the call yourself, there is seemingly no need for any police checks of any land, simply the fact that you do have a requirement/land.

 

That is why I have asked for the legislation that backs up the statement below!

 

your primary land must already be on the register as suitable if its not it MUST be checked

 

People commonly make legal/factual statements because "they heard it somewhere", someone please show me the legislation.

 

Cheers

 

 

Forget the legislation, your local FLD will apply the guidance as it sees fit and decide what constitutes good reason in their area. If they decide that you need to do something to justify their renewing your ticket then you'll do it mate. They grant and renew the certificate and they'll decide what they'll accept as good reason to keep it. None of us like it, all of us are stuck with it, the ones that don't get hit with it are lucky (I'm sure they soon will).

 

It's said too often on here that some FLD's are good and some are not so good and some are positively anal. If all forces applied the rules appropriately we wouldn't need the shooting organisations to defend us and argue our case.

 

West Yorks can blow hot and cold. Lorraines last renewal was straightforward and when the FEO asked for proof of somewhere to shoot he followed it up with "Oh, it doesn't matter you've got an open ticket". When the same guy came out to me I had to jump through all the hoops. Go figure.

 

 

We seem to be going round in circles, I have already suggested a regional thing, but regardless of enforcement or interpretation this is either a legal requirement or it isn't, debate what any region or FLO wants to do as much as you like, can someone show me the legislation??

 

I think not!

 

ATB!!

Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers

[DaveK]

We seem to be going round in circles, I have already suggested a regional thing, but regardless of enforcement or interpretation this is either a legal requirement or it isn't, debate what any region or FLO wants to do as much as you like, can someone show me the legislation??

 

I think not!

 

ATB!!

 

 

I would suggest that it isn't. What IS though is for respective FLD's to assure themselves that an individual can prove that he/she has good reason to hold and FAC and to own the rifles on it. How they do that is pretty much up to them, hence the differences across the country. I'm not saying it's right or that it's not open to abuse (little empires cropping up), but it's what we've got for the forseeable future.

[al4x]

To back Deckers up I know a farmer who has had a .22lr for 40 years plus and his land has never been checked and its the land down on his ticket. I know this for fact as I enquired about it when he said it wasn't and wanted me to do some rabbiting, true enough not checked.

[Redgum]

Its mad isnt it about all this lack of clarity and differant rules for differant forces on something as important as firearm law. I don't want to change the subject or cause arguement but its exactly the same with the DSC 1. When I applied for my first centrefire,(243) the FEO told me I would have to have the DSC1 for deer and a mentor. All experienced rifle men who already had their deer rifles told me to tell the police to stuff it, apply for the guns I wanted and request any refusal in writing and take em to court and they would back down. Rang BASC about mentoring and they told me, if the police request it I would have to do it.

What do I do I thought, well I did the DSC1 and because of past experience didnt get a mentoring clause, my rimmies were open but the centrefire was a closed ticket. Its the same with the land, all the renewals I know of have had to be done on checked land regardless on what the previous license was. If thats what the police want then thats how it is, if you told em to proove it was law I can expect you may encounter a few problems and delays.

The problem is that the law is not set in stone and the police have the final call so mostly the balls in thier court. Some will apply for 308 and deer n boar on their first fac and will get it with open conditions others will apply for a .22lr for bunnies and get mentoring on top of a closed license. The situations of course are differant to want these differant rifles but the result would be differant from county to county.

[kdubya]

my fac was up for renewal last June I had a fully open ticket up to .243 my existing cert was based on a farm that is now a housing estate!! so as I STILL had to "prove need" I was asked to submit another piece of land as my primary land ( I gave them 3 permission slips) one was chosen and the landowner WAS contacted and the land WAS checked out by plod and deemed suitable(landowner let me know they had been ) for ALL my calibres ie .243 .223 .22lr .17 hmr and fac air x 2, perhaps I should have told them not to bother as deker says its not necessary. and that once you have an open cert you no longer have to prove need?

 

KW

[MC]

my fac was up for renewal last June I had a fully open ticket up to .243 my existing cert was based on a farm that is now a housing estate!! so as I STILL had to "prove need" I was asked to submit another piece of land as my primary land ( I gave them 3 permission slips) one was chosen and the landowner WAS contacted and the land WAS checked out by plod and deemed suitable(landowner let me know they had been ) for ALL my calibres ie .243 .223 .22lr .17 hmr and fac air x 2, perhaps I should have told them not to bother as deker says its not necessary. and that once you have an open cert you no longer have to prove need?

KW

 

 

That statement is wrong, you still have to prove you need a firearm. Just because your ticket is open that only means you can shoot on any land that you have permission to shoot over and YOU think it is safe.

 

If you do not have any land to shoot on then there goes your reason to own a firearm.

 

My last renewal was in may of this year and my FEO just asked if I still shot at X farm and Y farm. My ticket is open on all vermin calibres that I have.