kdubya Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 This stems from the very simple and crazy situation that as the OCCUPIER of land I can lend anyone (FAC holder or NOT) any of my rifles to use in my company! ATB!! It gets better 2 fac's never had any land checked open cert from day one and now YOU are the occupier of all your permissions ooh damn thats another rib gone! KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Unusual hey! I have my own personal FAC and as Secretary of my Home Office approved shooting club at Bisley I am also FAC holder for all Club tools, that's the way its done! 2 completely separate FAC's, BOTH with my name at the top! Does that cost you the price of two FAC's then ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) It gets better 2 fac's never had any land checked open cert from day one and now YOU are the occupier of all your permissions ooh damn thats another rib gone! KW You really have a lot to learn! Your ramblings simply show your inexperience. Your legal knowledge of firearms law is seriously lacking, you appear to have no knowledge of anything legal in firearms and you certainly have no idea of the meaning of OCCUPIER! Yes...I have 2 FAC...and a SGC Yes.. None of my land has ever been specifically checked for me Yes...I had an Open FAC from Day One Yes...I am the legal OCCUPIER of all land I have authority on Next question? Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Does that cost you the price of two FAC's then ? NO! I just have to pay for my personal FAC! A normal club would have to pay, but FULL Home Office registered clubs do not pay for their FAC/variations, but we do have to pay for the Home Office registration! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 You really have a lot to learn! Your ramblings simply show your inexperience. Your legal knowledge of firearms law is seriously lacking, you appear to have no knowledge of anything legal in firearms and you certainly have no idea of the meaning of OCCUPIER! maybe, but I aint walter mitty and pinnochio rolled into one and sat as an armchair expert like you oh not so wise one. remind me to put you on my ignore list marked TROLL KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 maybe, but I aint walter mitty and pinnochio rolled into one and sat as an armchair expert like you oh not so wise one. remind me to put you on my ignore list marked TROLL KW Grow up! You have an awful lot to learn! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Kdubya, all Deker's points are true and accurate. Why are you calling him a troll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 Kdubya, all Deker's points are true and accurate. Why are you calling him a troll? I asked him HOW he got his first fac without a land check? no answer, how he increased calibre without a land check? no answer. how he got his first fac immediately open without and form of land check ? no answer ! and the fact he is telling people that on renewal if they have an open cert they dont need to have any land change assessed thats why. especially when section 27b states this Good reason for the possession of firearms Section 27( of the Firearms Licensing Act 1968 provides that a chief officer of police shall grant or renew a firearms certificate if he is satisfied that the applicant has a good reason to posses, or purchase, or acquire the firearm or ammunition for which the application is made. Good reason is demonstrated by the applicant showing that he or she has acceptable facilities to use the type of firearm or firearms concerned. Target Shooting Please enclose a copy of your shooting club membership card or a letter from the club secretary confirming membership. You will be expected to be a full member. This does not apply to variation applications where there have been no changes in the applicant's club membership since his or her last certificate renewal and the additional firearm or firearms applied for are covered by the shooting club's 'approval'. Shooting Vermin/ Sporting Shooting If you do not own the land or the shooting rights to the land on which you intend to shoot, please enclose a copy of your authority to shoot over a separate area of land e.g. if you have permission to shoot a .22 rifle on one area and use a .270 for shooting deer elsewhere, you will need to produce two authorities. If you are applying for a variation to increase the number of firearms you wish to possess for shooting vermin/ sporting shooting. Please give the reason for the addition. Simply stating 'shooting vermin' or 'shooting deer' is not sufficient. If, for example you already have a .22 rifle for shooting vermin and are applying for a second you will need to justify the need for two in order that your good reason can be assessed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) I asked him HOW he got his first fac without a land check? no answer, how he increased calibre without a land check? no answer. how he got his first fac immediately open without and form of land check ? no answer ! and the fact he is telling people that on renewal if they have an open cert they dont need to have any land change assessed thats why. especially when section 27b states this Good reason for the possession of firearms Section 27( of the Firearms Licensing Act 1968 provides that a chief officer of police shall grant or renew a firearms certificate if he is satisfied that the applicant has a good reason to posses, or purchase, or acquire the firearm or ammunition for which the application is made. Good reason is demonstrated by the applicant showing that he or she has acceptable facilities to use the type of firearm or firearms concerned. Target Shooting Please enclose a copy of your shooting club membership card or a letter from the club secretary confirming membership. You will be expected to be a full member. This does not apply to variation applications where there have been no changes in the applicant's club membership since his or her last certificate renewal and the additional firearm or firearms applied for are covered by the shooting club's 'approval'. Shooting Vermin/ Sporting Shooting If you do not own the land or the shooting rights to the land on which you intend to shoot, please enclose a copy of your authority to shoot over a separate area of land e.g. if you have permission to shoot a .22 rifle on one area and use a .270 for shooting deer elsewhere, you will need to produce two authorities. If you are applying for a variation to increase the number of firearms you wish to possess for shooting vermin/ sporting shooting. Please give the reason for the addition. Simply stating 'shooting vermin' or 'shooting deer' is not sufficient. If, for example you already have a .22 rifle for shooting vermin and are applying for a second you will need to justify the need for two in order that your good reason can be assessed. You bore me, you have not read my posts accurately and I do not have to justify myself to you, everything I have stated here is demonstrably true, you are the one that stated categorically that land MUST be approved even for Open FAC holders on renewal, I suggested I wasn't convinced about this and asked you for the legislation...that is NOT what the above says. Please put me on your ignore list...Goodbye! Edited August 14, 2010 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 I asked him HOW he got his first fac without a land check? no answer, how he increased calibre without a land check? no answer. how he got his first fac immediately open without and form of land check ? no answer ! and the fact he is telling people that on renewal if they have an open cert they dont need to have any land change assessed thats why. especially when section 27b states this Good reason for the possession of firearms Section 27( of the Firearms Licensing Act 1968 provides that a chief officer of police shall grant or renew a firearms certificate if he is satisfied that the applicant has a good reason to posses, or purchase, or acquire the firearm or ammunition for which the application is made. Good reason is demonstrated by the applicant showing that he or she has acceptable facilities to use the type of firearm or firearms concerned. Target Shooting Please enclose a copy of your shooting club membership card or a letter from the club secretary confirming membership. You will be expected to be a full member. This does not apply to variation applications where there have been no changes in the applicant's club membership since his or her last certificate renewal and the additional firearm or firearms applied for are covered by the shooting club's 'approval'. Shooting Vermin/ Sporting Shooting If you do not own the land or the shooting rights to the land on which you intend to shoot, please enclose a copy of your authority to shoot over a separate area of land e.g. if you have permission to shoot a .22 rifle on one area and use a .270 for shooting deer elsewhere, you will need to produce two authorities. If you are applying for a variation to increase the number of firearms you wish to possess for shooting vermin/ sporting shooting. Please give the reason for the addition. Simply stating 'shooting vermin' or 'shooting deer' is not sufficient. If, for example you already have a .22 rifle for shooting vermin and are applying for a second you will need to justify the need for two in order that your good reason can be assessed. I think you may have missed the point. The legislation makes very clear the need to have good reason to own a firearm, and where that good reason involves the death of nature's creatures proof of permission is required. What is not required is the land clearance, which is a check to deem the suitability of land for calibre - no mention is made of the Good Reason at that land check. This allows latitude - if a given permission is a sensible size, it is likely not to need a check for relevant quarry. If on the other hand i apply for a .270 to shoot deer on 10 acres of horse yard, then eyebrows will be raised and more checks will be carried out. if this is an open ticket, it will be to confirm that the quarry species is likely to be present, for Good Reason purposes, and not necessarily for Land Clearance purposes. All they have to do by law is to make sure of your good reason, if you have an open ticket then they don't have to clear land, as YOU take responsibility for any screwups that may or may not occur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raja Clavata Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 All they have to do by law is to make sure of your good reason, if you have an open ticket then they don't have to clear land, as YOU take responsibility for any screwups that may or may not occur. What you and Dekers are saying makes sense to me here. But I'm a little confused by the last sentence from you quoted above - this seems to imply that in the event of a screwup which occurs when shooting on a closed ticket using a calibre that is approved for that land then the responsibility is either transferred or at least shared? Is this correct? If not then it logically seems to me that an open ticket has nothing to do with responsibility and more to do with trust / judgement which makes the obvious variabilty due to region / individual FEO judgement even more questionable!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted August 14, 2010 Report Share Posted August 14, 2010 I think you may have missed the point. The legislation makes very clear the need to have good reason to own a firearm, and where that good reason involves the death of nature's creatures proof of permission is required. What is not required is the land clearance, which is a check to deem the suitability of land for calibre - no mention is made of the Good Reason at that land check. This allows latitude - if a given permission is a sensible size, it is likely not to need a check for relevant quarry. If on the other hand i apply for a .270 to shoot deer on 10 acres of horse yard, then eyebrows will be raised and more checks will be carried out. if this is an open ticket, it will be to confirm that the quarry species is likely to be present, for Good Reason purposes, and not necessarily for Land Clearance purposes. All they have to do by law is to make sure of your good reason, if you have an open ticket then they don't have to clear land, as YOU take responsibility for any screwups that may or may not occur. I was not on about the terms of an open ticket I was stating I had to have land checked prior to RENEWAL when you have changed your primary land (this is what this thread was about once) so how do they know the size of the land ? how do they know the terrain?and accept suitability without visiting the land deemed your primary reason to own a said firearm? I last june(actually the back end of april ticket renewal was june) had my five yearly visit re renewal, I did not want to alter calibre above that which I had already been granted on my expiring license, Both I and my feo knew my old primary land was now a rather large housing estate, so I submitted a few of my other permissions, he asked which was the biggest and stated that would be my primary land, ringing the landowner very quickly to confirm my permission, now remember this was renewal not an initial application and that I had a fully open cert, some weeks later ( wondering when my cert was coming back) I rang my FLD I was told "we are still awaiting land suitability checks" ( north yorks to do that though I am in cleveland) they did eventually go and quiz the landowner at some length he stated there and then that it was suitable ( I was not present but the landowner let me know). so all I want to know and its my last post on this subject is HOW someone can get an open ticket straight off no land checks nowt and any calibre required, when the rest of us have to go through burning hoops? and how someone can say you don't need land checks on renewal if you change land when patently they might. KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 All that has to happen is the firearms guys are happy that you have good reason for the calibre. That will mean they know you've somewhere to shoot it. Your firearms guys do formal land checks, seems that FEOs in Thames Valley don't always worry. What will have happened is that our FEO will simply have gone "Yep, I know it" and that will be that. Happened to me too, no checks but FEO happy that land OK from what you tell them. I guess just much less formal. Raja - with a closed ticket, the land check is to verify that you can safely use Calibre A on Land A. If you then do that and shoot someone, I expect that you and you alone are deep in the poo, but you will be able to say the land was cleared, and someone in the firearms dept is getting MAJOR ####ing I would expect!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 When I applied for my first fac, originally it was for a .22lr, the land I was to shoot on had been passed for .22lr years before as the farmer had a .22lr( and prob his father before that). The FEO, though he knows the farm didnt contact the farmer or recheck the ground, I know cos hes a mate, a year or so later I had a .17hmr passed on the same land, the FEO told me that this was ok as it had been passed years before and was on the register( they are trying to put together a national register. When I applied for my 243 for deer and fox, the land over which I was shooting was only classed upto .22LR so my FEO came out and met me and did the land check. He didnt even get out of his van, just asked what the soil type was, pointed out the best areas to shoot in and recommended a high seat in the wood. Took probably 15 minutes and job done. Thats how it was for me anyway, but like I said earlier, it does seem to vary as per license. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barrelsniffer Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Hi Mick Cheshire like to re check land every 5 years so ive been told This is not for me "ie cheshire", its my mate who is under merseyside..yet land comes under northwales.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunganick Posted August 15, 2010 Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Surely despite what anyone might say there is evidence (in the form of members) that not all forces require or request land (or a piece of) to be listed on a renewal. As ever with Firearms law it seems to be made up as needed. So the advice to the OP would be to re-apply and cross this bridge when it comes to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted August 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2010 Thankfully that's not till 2014... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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