News about shotgun renewals in Beds and Herts

[garjo]

From local press:

 

Gun licensing plan “ill-advised”

Ewan Foskett

Tuesday, 14 September, 2010

17:32 PM

 

A MONEY-saving plan to stop home visits for some shotgun licence renewals have been slammed as “both premature and ill-advised” by a gun control expert.

 

 

 

Plans to halt home visits for the five-yearly renewals as part of the collaboration between Bedfordshire Police and Hertfordshire Constabulary will be put forward later this month.

 

If they are approved it will mean that gun users may be able to keep their licences without assessment by police officers.

 

The plan has been criticised by Peter Squires, professor of criminology and public policy at the University of Brighton, who is a member of the Gun Control Network.

 

He said: “In the wake of the murderous Cumbria outrage - which involved a licensed shotgun - and at a time when the House of Commons Home Affairs Select Committee is still sifting through evidence submitted about firearm security, from GCN and additionally from myself, amongst others, I would have thought that the plans of the Hertfordshire and Bedfordshire Police proposal to stop home visits for some shotgun licence renewals is both premature and ill-advised. “Owning a firearm should be an onerous responsibility and subject to tough scrutiny, and part of the purpose of the home visit on licence renewals is to check weapon safety and security and personal suitability. You cannot do this on paper.

 

“My hunch is that maybe the police are playing a little brinkmanship in view of impending budget cuts, they might think this could be a way of waking politicians up to the consequences of policing cuts.

 

“At the end of the day, Parliament has to legislate further.

 

“Really, the cost of the licensing system should be borne by gun owners not the public and further suggestions for tightening gun security in the home by myself and GCN colleagues in our evidence to the Home Affairs Select Committee.”

 

If the proposal is accepted, the shotgun licence plan will go out to consultation before being put into practice.

 

Gun licence owners would still have to meet certain criteria in order to be eligible for the home visit to be skipped. A spokesperson for Hertfordshire Constabulary said: “Firearms licensing is one of a number of functions currently being advanced with a proposal regarding future joint working due to be considered in the near future.

 

“As part of the search to carry out this function in the most effective and efficient way possible, the proposal includes the withdrawal of blanket home visits to people renewing their licences, an approach already adopted by a number of forces across the country.

 

“This will be replaced by a risk-assessed process whereby enhanced intelligence checks will identify those who ought to receive a home visit, without waiting for the expiry of their current licence. The process will be designed by experienced professional leads from the two forces.

 

“Research has shown that across a sample of representative forces only 0.2 per cent of licence holders had their licence revoked for any reason.

 

“Hertfordshire, in 2009, had no examples of a routine home visit revealing a licence holder being unfit to have their licence renewed in circumstances which an enhanced risk assessment would not have identified.

 

“This is a time of considerable change throughout policing, including firearms licensing.

 

“Not only are fees for licences being examined by the Home Office, as they only provide for 16 per cent of the cost of providing the service, but the effectiveness of the current process is also subject to reviews post-Cumbria.

 

“The approach suggested by the proposal is designed to address the need to make best use of authority funds, whilst taking advantage of improved intelligence to deliver more timely, risk-assessed interventions to continue to ensure public safety.”

[Vince Green]

If nothing has changed since the last renewal why have a visit? They never used to do it. Its one of those things that just evolved. I used to renew my FAC and SGC years ago and never saw anyone. People may find this amazing but I never saw anyone on my initial application for a FAC!

 

You have to realise that the Gun Control Network is the most cranky of the antis and always push themselves into the limelight at every opportunity. One of the shooting organisations (I think it might have been Shooters Rights) tried to do an investigation into where they got their funding from and apparantly its a can of worms.

[Graham M]

Gill Marshall-Andrews is married to Bob Marshall-Andrews a Nu-labour MP…….so where would you suppose their money comes from. :blink:

 

 

G.M.

[al4x]

not sure on my views on this, I have no problem with a visit means the FEO knows me and vice versa they then usually check your guns match your ticket etc so really I can see this being a negative move by the police, it is afterall only once every 5 years. Though I suppose it probably doesn't achieve anything if you just want to keep the same number of guns and same conditions so its probably unnecessary

[Mr_Logic]

Having spoken to Bob at a wedding I was attending recently, I got the impression his wife must be the really neurotic one, he didn't seem to care about much at all...

[poontang]

Gill Marshall-Andrews is married to Bob Marshall-Andrews a Nu-labour MP…….so where would you suppose their money comes from. :blink:

 

 

G.M.

 

She's mad as a box of frogs.

 

Check out her Facebook page :( :(

[Billy.]

I think it just keeps a face to the FEO and you can have a good chat to realise they're not all machines!

 

I do actually think it's crucial for them to come round every five years, as it gives them a chance to assess you, your mentality and the environment you live in.

 

Whilst it's easy to say 'If you've done nothing wrong in the time since your grant/last renewal you don't need to be seen again' you might not realise your mentality has changed. If the FEO remembers you as a bright and friendly person and meets a low and quiet person, they might be inclined to ask what's up.

[Vince Green]

I think it just keeps a face to the FEO and you can have a good chat to realise they're not all machines!

 

I do actually think it's crucial for them to come round every five years, as it gives them a chance to assess you, your mentality and the environment you live in.

 

Whilst it's easy to say 'If you've done nothing wrong in the time since your grant/last renewal you don't need to be seen again' you might not realise your mentality has changed. If the FEO remembers you as a bright and friendly person and meets a low and quiet person, they might be inclined to ask what's up.

People can put on an act for the duration of a short visit from the FEO. If they are dodgy they are not going to let it show. Thats the point I think they are getting at. Police rely more on phone calls from the public. when I was secretary of a club I made several such phone calls. I didn't like doing it but it was my job and my responsibility to do it.

 

Three people had their guns taken away because of me, it didn't feel good. One was an alcoholic and a good mate who never spoke to me again, He got pulled up in his car and breathalysed one morning a hundred yards from his house and lost his licence because of my phone call. They were waiting for him. He's now dead. Another was a psycologically damaged ex soldier and the third was just becoming more weird and worrying as time went on. When I found out he was on medication and hadn't disclosed it I had no choice but to report it.

The ex soldier went ballistic, made threats against me and my family and allegations against me to the police that resulted in my house getting searched one Sunday. He was later charged with wasting police time but the charges were dropped.

 

The point is all three had passed visits from their FEOs at renewal time. Was I wrong to do it? I often wonder.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Vince Green

[Graham M]

I shoot with a former psychologically disturbed shooter.

He was a bag of nerves after serving in Northern Ireland and it was only through joining our club and getting to shoot out in the countryside that gave him back his sense of belonging. Taking away his shooting would have destroyed him completely.

G.M.

[the running man]

That squires bloke was on the tv the day of cumbria,telling everyone his opinions on gun control,farmers only to have guns,ammo locked up at the local nick,police to check exact firearm movements, target shooters why? No need for target clubs, as ill informed as the commander of the light brigade.

[mossy835]

good idear never used to have a visit.saves the police time.

[Vince Green]

I shoot with a former psychologically disturbed shooter.

He was a bag of nerves after serving in Northern Ireland and it was only through joining our club and getting to shoot out in the countryside that gave him back his sense of belonging. Taking away his shooting would have destroyed him completely.

G.M.

This bloke had a few run ins with people in the club over trivial things that he over reacted to agressively. Finally after a major flare up he was told not to come back and the police were told he was not a member of our club anymore. ( which we have to do).

He could have sorted it out easily if he had stayed reasonable with the police and gone off and joined another club. Instead he chose to throw all his toys out of the pram and got into a shouting match with the poice making threats and allegations.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Vince Green

[Vince Green]

That squires bloke was on the tv the day of cumbria,telling everyone his opinions on gun control,farmers only to have guns,ammo locked up at the local nick,police to check exact firearm movements, target shooters why? No need for target clubs, as ill informed as the commander of the light brigade.

Don't underestimate him though, Professor gives him the status of "Expert" in the eyes of lots of the public. And he is, or he used to be , a Home Office advisor.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Vince Green

[Graham M]

This bloke had a few run ins with people in the club over trivial things that he over reacted to agressively. Finally after a major flare up he was told not to come back and the police were told he was not a member of our club anymore. ( which we have to do).

He could have sorted it out easily if he had stayed reasonable with the police and gone off and joined another club. Instead he chose to throw all his toys out of the pram and got into a shouting match with the poice making threats and allegations.

Understood

 

G.M.

[al4x]

Vince it sounds like you did the right thing, this gives an idea how easily some incidents can be stopped which has to be in the persons best interest

, it can be hidden from the police so there is a civil duty to report

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-11379881

[Guest cookoff013]

People can put on an act for the duration of a short visit from the FEO. If they are dodgy they are not going to let it show. Thats the point I think they are getting at. Police rely more on phone calls from the public. when I was secretary of a club I made several such phone calls. I didn't like doing it but it was my job and my responsibility to do it.

 

Three people had their guns taken away because of me, it didn't feel good.

 

One was an alcoholic and a good mate who never spoke to me again, He got pulled up in his car and breathalysed one morning a hundred yards from his house and lost his licence because of my phone call. They were waiting for him. He's now dead.

Another was a psycologically damaged ex soldier

 

and the third was just becoming more weird and worrying as time went on. When I found out he was on medication and hadn't disclosed it I had no choice but to report it.

The ex soldier went ballistic, made threats against me and my family and allegations against me to the police that resulted in my house getting searched one Sunday. He was later charged with wasting police time but the charges were dropped.

 

The point is all three had passed visits from their FEOs at renewal time. Was I wrong to do it? I often wonder.

 

 

sounds like you know a character or two..

1,drinking and driving is a big clue to their "having a problem".

2, the fact that ex soldier made up allegations. (of course he`d get caught out. lying to the police? )

3, when you say your 3rd friend was acting weird, WHAT do you mean? was he wrapping everything in foil? joined a cult?

[Vince Green]

 

sounds like you know a character or two..

1,drinking and driving is a big clue to their "having a problem".

2, the fact that ex soldier made up allegations. (of course he`d get caught out. lying to the police? )

3, when you say your 3rd friend was acting weird, WHAT do you mean? was he wrapping everything in foil? joined a cult?

Being the secretary of a big and busy pistol club for ten years means you meet all sorts of people. Pistol clubs I'm afraid attracted all the wrong sorts but I think we were best equipped to weed them out. We saw them week after week.

 

The third man had always been a bit odd but started telling us that people were spying on him and he thought his phone was tapped. it turned out he was being treated for paranoid delusions and was on medication. His Doctor didn't know he was a shooter because he had concealed it from him. He had also concealed his medication from the police.

 

The good side of these events was that the police came to realise our club was straight and tightly run and they gave us a lot of respect. FEOs are unlikely to spot problem people in a one off visit no matter how well trained they are. Clubs are much more able to spot problems but then you have a real dilema deciding what to do about it.

 

Thomas Hamilton, the man who shot the kids in the school at Dunblane was refused membership of a club just before he did it. They must have had concerns about him but they didn't tell the police. Its a shame they didn't, it might have prevented what happened later. For a club to refuse membership to an established shooter and an FAC holder indicates to me there must have something quite major.

 

The drink driving guy was heart wrenching, i had known him for years and he and his wife had been guests at my wedding. He just spiralled out of control after being made redundant. Although I suspect his redundancy was because they had spotted his problm at work.

I never thought they would wait for him outside his house. I had advised them to call at his house unannounced one afternoon and they would find him the worse for wear. He never spoke to me again and I don't blame him. He died last year, I'm suprised he lived as long as he did considering what he was drinking.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Vince Green