Badger cull?

[Fisherman Mike]

And this will NEVER be achieved without control of the wildlife reservoir.

 

Imagine we vaccinated all cattle, what do you think would happen to the badger population with TB? It wouldn't go away because it is well established. It would continue to spread to larger areas. You think this is good?

 

There is no alternative to killing badgers, the politicians need some balls and let people get on with it.

 

 

So your infact saying then that the wildlife reservoir should be Culled to control BOVINE TB which includes, Weasels, Stoats, Roe, Fallow, Muntjac, Red, Hedgehogs, Hares, Rabbits, Voles, & Moles...all of which potentially carry the Bovine TB strain....Lets start on the ground dwelling Birds next....

 

Im sorry but effective control of TB in Cattle can only be achieved by Vaccination or Innoculations measures as it was with the Human Strain...Any gassing or Culling of Badger populations is futile and unneccessary. ( I have been involved directly with TB gassing for the local Defra depot in the SW in the 80,s and it was a complete waste of time. ) Its about time the Ministry woke up to this fact and established a proper development programme.

 

The politicians need some balls to stand up to Euro policy and get on with the vaccination programme. (In my opinion)

[stokie]

Dont you just love how some threads get carried away . No has ever suggested that badger will be classed as vermin . The farmers in infected areas have to nominate upto 2 shooters who can carry out the cull on their land if indeed one were to take place and it will .

[955i]

And this will NEVER be achieved without control of the wildlife reservoir.

 

But in order for it to be effective and not just a free for all, if the cull was agreed to then it would more than likely be on the condition that the badgers in any given area were PROVEN to have TB.

 

In order to do this, then each individual would have to be tested as the protection under the Badgers Act would still be in place, the goalposts would just be moved a bit for the purpose of the cull and it would therefore still technically be illegal to kill one that did not have the disease.

 

I think if the organisations involved in making the decision REALLY believed that it would cure the problem, they would have instigated it long ago but the proof isn't there to make it a certainty which is why they never pass the idea through as they are scared of the public backlash when it is shown to have not worked.

 

It is just un-workable in reality and while it would be nice to think that this would be the quick fix that people want it to be, there are far too many other variables for it to be a success.

[apache]

So your infact saying then that the wildlife reservoir should be Culled to control BOVINE TB which includes, Weasels, Stoats, Roe, Fallow, Muntjac, Red, Hedgehogs, Hares, Rabbits, Voles, & Moles...all of which potentially carry the Bovine TB strain....Lets start on the ground dwelling Birds next....

 

Bovine TB is just a name. There would be no need to cull pigs if swine flu broke out in people, because it originated in pigs/cattle that's how it got it's name. You are getting hung up on the word 'bovine' in there. Just think of it as controlling animal TB.

As I said, a number of posts ago, the badger is THE BIGGEST RISK BY FAR as it passes the bacterium out in the urine, unlike most other mammals where it goes to the lungs. Badgers are in close, intimate contact with cattle and a relatively large animal generating a large amount of TB bacteria in their urine. Have you seen the videos that were floating around of badgers getting into cattle feed troughs. Bird TB is a different entity and lets not cloud the issue here.

 

 

Im sorry but effective control of TB in Cattle can only be achieved by Vaccination or Innoculations measures as it was with the Human Strain...Any gassing or Culling of Badger populations is futile and unneccessary. ( I have been involved directly with TB gassing for the local Defra depot in the SW in the 80,s and it was a complete waste of time. ) Its about time the Ministry woke up to this fact and established a proper development programme.

 

On what evidence? The expert panel at DEFRA don't seem to agree with you

 

“I have looked carefully at the potential for using badger vaccination. Based on veterinary advice and the available scientific evidence, the Government’s assessment is that vaccination on its own will not reduce disease as quickly as culling. However by using it in combination with culling, it is possible to maximise the effectiveness of badger control in reducing bovine TB in cattle.” [source http://ww2.defra.gov.uk/news/2010/09/15/control-bovine-tb/]

 

There are many eminent vets and even farmers who would disagree with you there. It doesn't work like that on epidemiological terms!

 

The politicians need some balls to stand up to Euro policy and get on with the vaccination programme. (In my opinion)

 

That's just illegal, and it doesn't work like that. AND vaccine is at least 5 years away from been ready for use. We could start a cull NOW!

 

 

But in order for it to be effective and not just a free for all, if the cull was agreed to then it would more than likely be on the condition that the badgers in any given area were PROVEN to have TB.

 

In order to do this, then each individual would have to be tested as the protection under the Badgers Act would still be in place, the goalposts would just be moved a bit for the purpose of the cull and it would therefore still technically be illegal to kill one that did not have the disease.

 

The issue would be in areas of a high TB incidence in cattle as it has been shown that high cattle incidence = high badger incidence. Have you actually read on the DEFRA site what they propose? Would be impossible and unworkable to test individual badgers [not to mention prohibitively expensive].

 

I think if the organisations involved in making the decision REALLY believed that it would cure the problem, they would have instigated it long ago but the proof isn't there to make it a certainty which is why they never pass the idea through as they are scared of the public backlash when it is shown to have not worked.

 

It is just un-workable in reality and while it would be nice to think that this would be the quick fix that people want it to be, there are far too many other variables for it to be a success.

 

The only reason this wasn't pushed through long ago is that it would be unpopular with the general public who [on the whole] really don't understand the scale of things and what needs to be done.

 

Culling alone will not control TB, we need a holistic coordinated effort with cattle testing, movement restrictions, vaccination and culling. Without all facets we will loose the battle with TB, as we are doing now.

 

I don't mind if you personally don't want to shoot them, but when you look at all the evidence there is no option.

[al4x]

the simple thing is they aren't going to be classed as vermin, the farmer will need to nominate one of two people to do the controlling. The numbers culled will be registered and the statistics will go from there. Simple fact is if you own a dairy herd in the south west and never bring a cow onto it you will still get cows test positive for BTB the link is there its just ignore by those who don't know better and believe badgers to be cute and cuddly, and Brian May who really ought to go back to singing rather than preaching about things he has no idea about. The theory is badgers in a certain radius round an outbreak will be culled along with any cows on that farm that test positive and the herd will then be re tested at a later date. Its a strategy that used to work and since it got stopped it has allowed this disease to infect far more areas and as such we now have a huge problem to deal with and its spreading all the time.

[gsm1968]

the simple thing is they aren't going to be classed as vermin, the farmer will need to nominate one of two people to do the controlling. The numbers culled will be registered and the statistics will go from there. Simple fact is if you own a dairy herd in the south west and never bring a cow onto it you will still get cows test positive for BTB the link is there its just ignore by those who don't know better and believe badgers to be cute and cuddly, and Brian May who really ought to go back to singing rather than preaching about things he has no idea about. The theory is badgers in a certain radius round an outbreak will be culled along with any cows on that farm that test positive and the herd will then be re tested at a later date. Its a strategy that used to work and since it got stopped it has allowed this disease to infect far more areas and as such we now have a huge problem to deal with and its spreading all the time.

 

 

 

Apache and al4x are right IMHO.

 

My permission is almost all dairy and was shut down for almost two years with Tb. That was after two years of being clear after the last lot of cattle were culled.

17 reactors first time and a total of nearly 50 by time they went clear. The badger activity can clearly be seen and was at the same time the tb returned. The sets are unused for months at a time and then you see the fresh diggings and activity in the silage etc. Then you get reactors.

The costs are huge, compensation, repeated testing,the added labour time ........it just goes on and on.

Two years of no stock movement,(other than reactors off to slaughter) all the bull calves being shot at 24hr old. It's enough to make the farmers give up.

 

About time they sorted it properly.

[Devon Fox]

 

Apache and al4x are right IMHO.

 

My permission is almost all dairy and was shut down for almost two years with Tb. That was after two years of being clear after the last lot of cattle were culled.

17 reactors first time and a total of nearly 50 by time they went clear. The badger activity can clearly be seen and was at the same time the tb returned. The sets are unused for months at a time and then you see the fresh diggings and activity in the silage etc. Then you get reactors.

The costs are huge, compensation, repeated testing,the added labour time ........it just goes on and on.

Two years of no stock movement,(other than reactors off to slaughter) all the bull calves being shot at 24hr old. It's enough to make the farmers give up.

 

About time they sorted it properly.

 

Fully agree with You - Most of my pals are dairy farmers, and its gutting to see the stress that they go through down here in Mid Devon as we are hit quite badly around these parts.

 

Not sure what the long term solution to this is going to be

[rascal_2005]

just a quick one! i thought that TB could be a problem in deer aswell? deer seemed to be controled to keep populations healthy! why not badgers.

just a thought?

 

john boy

[al4x]

simply they got persecuted to the edge of extinction so became protected, gained a fluffy image and now various badger protection people like to make it as hard as possible to get sorted. No one is suggesting wiping them out just controlled culling where the problems exist

[Fisherman Mike]

I have come round to some extent to agreeing with you that Badgers need control if incidences of Bovine TB are endemic in areas run by cattle. But badgers dont exercise boundary recognition… some will travel many miles in an evening foraging. How can a Cull be implemented successfully on this basis. The Gassing cull in the SW in the 60,s and 70,s for fear of a rabies epidemic did not eradicate Badgers and sets were quickly re-populated. Similar happened in this region in the 80,s with the initial TB gassing Cull. Has it removed the disease.??

 

Giving one or two shooters shooting rights to shoot badgers on a particular farm with incidence of TB is going to be completely and utterly ineffective at controlling the spread of the Disease and will only get the anti shooting Publics goat up even more because as al4x says the majority of the public including country dwellers see the Badger has a harmless cuddly victim of the piece. They may well be people who should know better al4x but im afarid they are the Majority.

 

This is the post 97 survey trial summary...

 

The original INEPENDENT study "The Randomised Badger Culling Trial (designed, overseen and analysed by the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle TB, or ISG was a large field trial of widescale (proactive) culling and localised reactive culling (in comparison with areas which received no badger culling). In their final report, the ISG concluded: "First, while badgers are clearly a source of cattle TB, careful evaluation of our own and others data indicates that badger culling can make no meaningful contribution to cattle TB control in Britain. Indeed, some policies under consideration are likely to make matters worse rather than better. Second, weaknesses in cattle testing regimes mean that cattle themselves contribute significantly to the persistence and spread of disease in all areas where TB occurs, and in some parts of Britain are likely to be the main source of infection. Scientific findings indicate that the rising incidence of disease can be reversed, and geographical spread contained, by the rigid application of cattle-based control measures alone." .

 

One thing I dont understand in all this is have the cows infected the badgers originally or have the badgers infected the cows.

 

I still opine that development of a vaccination programme is the only way to eliminate the disease completely in this country rather than a wholescale CULL of Badgers.

 

You would have to KILL every last Badger in order to be completely confident that it wouldnt rear it head again in 20 years time, and obvously that would just be plain folly.

 

Accepted something has to be done but the appeasement of the Farmers by allowing short term Culling is not going to yeild a long term solution to this problem.

[Fisherman Mike]

simply they got persecuted to the edge of extinction so became protected, gained a fluffy image and now various badger protection people like to make it as hard as possible to get sorted. No one is suggesting wiping them out just controlled culling where the problems exist

 

 

Hand on heart though al4x do you really think controlled culling will eliviate the localised problem knowing how quickly Badgers re colonise sets and move in from surrounding territories. ?

 

I am afraid that if effective control is required on this basis it will mean wiping them out and the indescriminate shooting by two people on the farm soon flows over to two more on the neighbouing property and so on and so on and it will snowball to the extent that when we arent Pigeion shooting we will be badger hunting. You and the Dairy farmers are right something must be done...We dveloped Pasteurisation in the 30,s to eliminate TB transfer from Milk to Humans and we need something revolutionary akin to that now.

[al4x]

have a look here FM it gives a lot more background reading

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control-measures/100915-tb-control-measures-annexb.pdf

[Fisherman Mike]

have a look here FM it gives a lot more background reading

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/consult/tb-control-measures/100915-tb-control-measures-annexb.pdf

 

 

Thanks now Im seriously confused quote....

 

"It is important that when we use a figure from a scientific study to make predictions about what we expect to see in the future we recognise the statistical uncertainty that is associated with that figure."

 

I going to have to sit down for 30 mins and study carefully your avatar to regain my composure

[apache]

One thing I don’t understand in all this is have the cows infected the badgers originally or have the badgers infected the cows.

 

Long ago people infected cows with TB, the cattle then infected the badgers. The disease is now endemic in the badger population in affected areas and easily spreads from badger to badger, you don't need cattle to continue the badger to badger spread.

 

The British trial that you quoted was flawed as they tired reducing badger numbers, breaking up their complex social structure and it caused infected badgers to wander spreading the disease. We need as complete a cull as possible. If you read the original DEFRA paperwork they wanted adjacent farmers to club together to make large solid blocks of land, rather than deal with a single isolated farm. The culling needs to be relentless and as much effort as possible is needed to kill as many badgers in an area as is possible.

 

The Irish tial was far more effective and showed a real reduction in TB infections.

[markbivvy]

looks like its not only billy and bully that's affected.

 

http://bovinetb.blogspot.com/2009/07/transmission-alpacas.html

[lord_seagrave]

 

Culling alone will not control TB, we need a holistic coordinated effort with cattle testing, movement restrictions, vaccination and culling. Without all facets we will loose the battle with TB, as we are doing now.

 

I don't mind if you personally don't want to shoot them, but when you look at all the evidence there is no option.

 

How proportionate were the FMD controls, Apache?

 

How would TB controls compare?

 

No agenda, just curious.

 

LS

[gsm1968]

 

One thing I don’t understand in all this is have the cows infected the badgers originally or have the badgers infected the cows.

 

 

Round here some of the older farmers believe that just after the war the old Standish hospital that specialised in TB caused it all in the area. Waste was not handled by modern standards and dressings etc. were just put in a pit and burned, but not before the badgers had a forage in there.

Might just be old farm rumours, but sounds possible.

[apache]

How proportionate were the FMD controls, Apache?

 

How would TB controls compare?

 

No agenda, just curious.

 

LS

Foot and mouth control was over the top and there was little shaky evidence for the contiguous cull. They had vaccine and should have used it in conjunction with culling.

 

The problem with TB is that by just killing cows and ignoring other reservoirs they uninfected cows become re-infected. So we are under-doing it on the TB front. In this day and age with what we know about epidemiology we should be able to eradicate TB in 5 years if we had the money and resources.