MPs demand tighter gun laws

[David BASC]

Not sure what you are annoyed about, but the recent debate on firearms controls did credit to parliament. Every speaker, except one known anti, paid tribute to importance and responsibility of the shooting community.

 

BASC is delighted that MPs made good use of the briefing material we circulated round parliament. Given the tenor of the debate we can hope that the few recommendations that would damage shooting will probably not be taken forward.

 

But we will not be letting our guard down. The government have announced that they intend to respond to the inquiry in around two months time and we will be working to ensure that that response benefits shooting sports.

 

So it’s not over, those that put in their evidence to the committee thank you very much, but keep lobbying your MP!

 

For those that, for what ever reason did not get a chance to send in a reply to the committee, now is YOUR chance to do your bit!

 

David

[blackbirdtrev]

No amount of legislation by the Government will cut gun crime. If someone wants a gun to commit a crime they will go and source one, i would imagine in todays culture it would not be a hard thing to do. The government will take the easy way out and by this i mean, instaed of finding the illegal guns out there and dealing with them they will legislate against all the legally held guns. Why? Because they know where them guns and them people are thus making there job easier. People keep harping on about Dereck Bird but no matter how stringent the legislation is they will never stop this happening again. Even some Police officers go off the rails and commit serious crimes and look at the vetting they go through.

[blackbirdtrev]

No amount of legislation by the Government will cut gun crime. If someone wants a gun to commit a crime they will go and source one, i would imagine in todays culture it would not be a hard thing to do. The government will take the easy way out and by this i mean, instaed of finding the illegal guns out there and dealing with them they will legislate against all the legally held guns. Why? Because they know where them guns and them people are thus making there job easier. People keep harping on about Dereck Bird but no matter how stringent the legislation is they will never stop this happening again. Even some Police officers go off the rails and commit serious crimes and look at the vetting they go through.

[MartB]

David,

Thanks. Annoyance was in respect of the brief BASC statement I read (Shooting times?) which seemed to suggest that all was well (at least that was how I felt on reading it). Clearly this is far from cut and dried and I would have preferred a more detailed statement. I was pleased that some of the more 'misinformed' suggestions that arose during the committee meetings didn't come to anything. These include suggestions that firearms be stored in out buildings, or kept at a secure storage site, with, or without ammo. Clearly an invitation for criminals to go on a shopping spree.

 

Apart from the points mentioned in my last note above, I have great concerns, as I know also have others, including doctors, about the tagging business.

 

I agree that the debate in Parliament was handled in a very gentlemanly way (ladies included).

I noted that even Mr Vaz's son is concerned that he might be about to get guns banned and that he reassured his son that this is not his intention. However, as we know, the road to a very hot place is paved with good intentions... Lets not go there.

I look forward to a more detailed statement from BASC, covering all the recommendations in the near future.

[mossy835]

i remember the good old days, when guns were held,we never had trouble at all getting guns,and putting them behind the door.you just filled out a form and sent it back,i used to send mine back the same day, how things have changed.when i go on the farm in the usa, if i wont a gun i give one of the farm hands the money, and we go buy a gun, the days have gone over here,our goverment dont know what to do next.

[blackbirdtrev]

I have just been watching the debate in parliament that was held on 20th December about this and 1 MP in particular Chris Williamson saying the only way to stop gun crime is a total ban on guns. Does he not understand that pistols were banned a number of years ago but most of the gun crime from that day till this has been with hand guns! People will always get hold of weapons for committing crime whether there is a total ban or not. It would be inetresting to see the statistics about cars used in crime but does that mean they are going to ban cars? Cars are a killer and you could cause more death and destruction by driving a car down a busy high street at 40 mph. We have some of the toughest gun laws in the world and i cannot see how you can make them tighter without penalizing legitimate gun licence holders. What needs to be done is the laws we have need to be made hard and fast, what i mean by this is the fact that of all the legislation available is interpreted in differant ways by differant Police forces throughout the uk. Legislation covering Firearms/Shotguns should be worded in such a way that it can only be intrepeted in 1 way by all people. A car MOT is liking to gun legilation at present in so much as a certain amount of movement in a ball joint on the steering of a car would be fail at one place and pass at another. This is because the rules regarding MOT like Firarms laws does not say this has to be like this, that has to be like that. It is only guidelines that will be interpreted by differant people in different ways. Lets have gun legislation that means the same to all people who read it.

[Dekers]

I have just been watching the debate in parliament that was held on 20th December about this and 1 MP in particular Chris Williamson saying the only way to stop gun crime is a total ban on guns. Does he not understand that pistols were banned a number of years ago but most of the gun crime from that day till this has been with hand guns! People will always get hold of weapons for committing crime whether there is a total ban or not. It would be inetresting to see the statistics about cars used in crime but does that mean they are going to ban cars? Cars are a killer and you could cause more death and destruction by driving a car down a busy high street at 40 mph. We have some of the toughest gun laws in the world and i cannot see how you can make them tighter without penalizing legitimate gun licence holders. What needs to be done is the laws we have need to be made hard and fast, what i mean by this is the fact that of all the legislation available is interpreted in differant ways by differant Police forces throughout the uk. Legislation covering Firearms/Shotguns should be worded in such a way that it can only be intrepeted in 1 way by all people. A car MOT is liking to gun legilation at present in so much as a certain amount of movement in a ball joint on the steering of a car would be fail at one place and pass at another. This is because the rules regarding MOT like Firarms laws does not say this has to be like this, that has to be like that. It is only guidelines that will be interpreted by differant people in different ways. Lets have gun legislation that means the same to all people who read it.

 

The problem with the vast majority of MP's and Joe Public and the Media is that they are clueless idiots when it comes to guns.

 

Depending on whos figures you believe between just 1-2% of ALL gun crime in the UK is committed by legally held guns.

 

Therefore a TOTAL ban on guns would reduce gun crime by 2% at most.

 

This of course is ******** as the year after handguns were banned gun crime went up about 6% or 8% from memory.

[David BASC]

Fair play Mart, I understand what you are saying, but please remember its an evolving situation.

 

Our initial reaction to the report was that there were many good points, and frankly it could have been a damn site worse!

 

That brief statement was sent to ST and others as embargoed copy the day we saw the report, and before the House debated it.

 

However, as you will see on our web site we have a slightly more detailed statement after the debate, and have concerns over some of the points the committee made and we will be fighting these.

 

The pressure is still on and this will come back to the House in February so there is still oads for all of us ot do to make suer our sprot does not suffer daft restrictions.

 

David

[originalgeezer]

I would like to say:

 

I wrote a letter and I also wrote a letter to my MP

 

I would also say, if more resource was put on tackling the illegal gun trade, the numerous knife crime causing fatal injuries there would not have to legislate more against "LEGAL" gun ownership

 

However, I would offer a constructive point of suggesting that Firearm Officers kept in touch more, as then learning the persons who hold a license would be able to see if there were changes in circumstances that could affect someone's personality that could pose a risk? I would have no issue with my local Fire Arms officer arranging coming for a brew every know and then to actually know me a little rather than just what is on a form at renewal time....?

[sitsinhedges]

I would like to say:

 

I wrote a letter and I also wrote a letter to my MP

 

I would also say, if more resource was put on tackling the illegal gun trade, the numerous knife crime causing fatal injuries there would not have to legislate more against "LEGAL" gun ownership

 

However, I would offer a constructive point of suggesting that Firearm Officers kept in touch more, as then learning the persons who hold a license would be able to see if there were changes in circumstances that could affect someone's personality that could pose a risk? I would have no issue with my local Fire Arms officer arranging coming for a brew every know and then to actually know me a little rather than just what is on a form at renewal time....?

 

Just because a persons circumstances change there is no reason to deny them access to something that generally gives them a great deal of pleasure and make them a pariah in their shooting circles. FEO's certainly haven't the expertise to judge whether someone is going to become a danger and could only attempt a broad sweep of covering their ***** by revoking any and everyone who isn't the perfect model shooter in their eyes.

 

Let's face it, shooting men just don't flip that often and you can't stop it happening when it does by grinding the rest of us down with increasingly onerous demands.

 

I want to enjoy my sport in peace, not have to constantly prove myself.

[originalgeezer]

You can tell if someone's circumstances change and they are not coping well.

 

If we blindly suggest nothing then total ban by the uneducated is the route they will take. It is not about proving yourself, its about "developing a relationship" with your Firearms Officer, something I think we should all do, they should not be random strangers judging you off a form you have completed once every five years.

[sitsinhedges]

You can tell if someone's circumstances change and they are not coping well.

 

If we blindly suggest nothing then total ban by the uneducated is the route they will take. It is not about proving yourself, its about "developing a relationship" with your Firearms Officer, something I think we should all do, they should not be random strangers judging you off a form you have completed once every five years.

 

 

I disagree, I think people allow you to see what they want you to see, esp if they stand to lose something important.

 

If they have malicious intent do you really think an FEO will pick up on this over a cup of tea once in a blue moon.

 

Lets not forget that once upon a time you sent off your form got your licence by return and that was that, no visit at all. I can't remember there being carnage as a result.

[originalgeezer]

I cant agree my friend, having seen from personal experiences how peoples life experiences can affect them it can be seen - not all but in many cases. I have a friend whom a the moment I wouldn't trust with a butter knife, not maybe a harm to other but himself and if he was a license holder I would like him not to have access to his guns until he was in a better place.

 

I agree there are many ways he could harm, but at least it wouldn't be a firearm.

 

When I applied for mine, my firearms officer came and interviewed me and when I purchased my guns he came again - during the two visits we discussed all things and I would like to think began the process of developing a relationship. He lives local and I would have no issue if every know and then he came by, to check my license reflects my guns I own, that all seems okay with me and my life.

 

Also, Firearms Officers are as I understand experienced Police, or Ex Police Officers and I would like to think have some experience of life and circumstances.

 

Its by all means not perfect, but what do you propose because the only thing MP's will come up with is more restrictions towards bans.

[sitsinhedges]

I cant agree my friend, having seen from personal experiences how peoples life experiences can affect them it can be seen - not all but in many cases. I have a friend whom a the moment I wouldn't trust with a butter knife, not maybe a harm to other but himself and if he was a license holder I would like him not to have access to his guns until he was in a better place.

 

I agree there are many ways he could harm, but at least it wouldn't be a firearm.

 

When I applied for mine, my firearms officer came and interviewed me and when I purchased my guns he came again - during the two visits we discussed all things and I would like to think began the process of developing a relationship. He lives local and I would have no issue if every know and then he came by, to check my license reflects my guns I own, that all seems okay with me and my life.

 

Also, Firearms Officers are as I understand experienced Police, or Ex Police Officers and I would like to think have some experience of life and circumstances.

 

Its by all means not perfect, but what do you propose because the only thing MP's will come up with is more restrictions towards bans.

 

 

I do understand what you are saying but how do you apply it?

 

Stressful house move, he might crack, better have his guns away.

 

Problems with the kids, not looking good, better confiscate those guns just in case.

 

The thing is that everybody's lives go thru ebbs and flows and unless you are talking about serious and chronic mental illness they are dealt with and forgotten in general and the last thing you need is to have it compounded by the threat of having your property removed and your hobby ended by a twitchy FEO who is covering his own back.

 

Let's not forget how various aspects of shooting can improve your mental state, the social aspect, the pleasure of ownership, the concentration and focus required or the distraction from other aspects of your life that may not be going to well, just being out in the countryside etc. It could almost be prescribed as therapy

[markbivvy]

lets hope some mp,s read this.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/philipjohnston/8215017/Shotguns-arent-the-problem-criminals-are.html

[David BASC]

Good point Mark!

 

I have to say that many of these points (in the Telegraph piece) were mentioned in the first debate of the Committee report on Monday- and the MP's that spoke (apart from one!) were very much of a mind to see a very clear distinction between people like us and armed criminals.

 

As I have said before, there are still lots to do; both the associations and their members must keep up the lobbying pressure as this topic will come back to Parliament in February.

 

Best wishes to all.

 

David

[MartB]

Fair play Mart, I understand what you are saying, but please remember its an evolving situation.

 

Our initial reaction to the report was that there were many good points, and frankly it could have been a damn site worse!

 

That brief statement was sent to ST and others as embargoed copy the day we saw the report, and before the House debated it.

 

However, as you will see on our web site we have a slightly more detailed statement after the debate, and have concerns over some of the points the committee made and we will be fighting these.

 

The pressure is still on and this will come back to the House in February so there is still oads for all of us ot do to make suer our sprot does not suffer daft restrictions.

 

David

 

David,

Just read through the BASC statement. Yes it is better and I can see where you are going with it. I really just want to see all the unspoken implications set out at some point, so that we can all see where this could lead. I am convinced (and this has been confirmed through some of the discussions I have had with less rabid anti's) that many people do not understand just how managed our 'natural' environment is, and how detrimental to the countryside, would be the loss of the shooting community and associated activities. I don't know how close this country is to the knife edge in this respect, but I don't want to see us lose the wonderful countryside through the lose of its support mechanisms. Yes, the parliamentary debate was carried out in a gentlemanly manner, and it would be nice to think that we will be treated accordingly. Past experience suggests that a quick perusal of some of Machiavelli's works might be in order. In short, when shaking the oppositions hand check first what he has in the other one! we have been stabbed in the back too often.

 

On that slightly unseasonal note I wish all a very Happy Christmas and new Year. I will be taking my son and his girl friend out for a practice shoot at my local club and introducing them to the finer points of braised clay and two veg.

[HDAV]

On that slightly unseasonal note I wish all a very Happy Christmas and new Year. I will be taking my son and his girl friend out for a practice shoot at my local club and introducing them to the finer points of braised clay and two veg.

Good effort I am taking my parents, girlfriend and possibly more of the family out for some clays between Christmas and new Year and encouraging them to take the next step.