Out of interest......

[Dekers]

Slightly over power air rifle topics crop up fairly regularly, but my gut feeling is that the Police do not spend all their time checking air rifles.

 

Yep, sure, if someone is being a **** then they may have a look, but who has been done or knows anyone who has been in trouble?

 

NOT pub talk, NOT I heard, Not my mate told me about someone, NOT I read on a forum, etc., etc., FACT only.

 

My dealings with the police and firearms have been numerous, and many FEO I have found to be clueless, the general beat bobby has a knowledge level on the minus scale when it come to firearms and the law surrounding them.

 

So, I'm curious to hear who has fallen foul of the law re 12ft lb, and in what circumstances..and what was the outcome!

[TJ91]

never heard of anyone been 'done' for it

 

but that doesnt mean it should be done.

before anyone got 'done' for drink driving, it didnt mean it was ok to do it, its still wrong, and 1 day they may clamp down on it, would you want to risk having an FAC rated airgun in your house when they pop round with a crono!?

 

its not worth the risk

 

if you want FAC rated airgun then get an FAC

[Dekers]

never heard of anyone been 'done' for it

 

but that doesnt mean it should be done.

before anyone got 'done' for drink driving, it didnt mean it was ok to do it, its still wrong, and 1 day they may clamp down on it, would you want to risk having an FAC rated airgun in your house when they pop round with a crono!?

 

its not worth the risk

 

if you want FAC rated airgun then get an FAC

 

 

Just so there isn't any confusion, I may not have put this over clearly.

 

I make NO suggestion it should be done, I am simply curious in the great scheme of things of who was done, how and why, and what was the outcome.

[TJ91]

Just so there isn't any confusion, I may not have put this over clearly.

 

I make NO suggestion it should be done, I am simply curious in the great scheme of things of who was done, how and why, and what was the outcome.

 

i know you never meant that

i just guessed the majority on here will of never heard of anyone getting 'done' for it and dont want some thinking that they should do it if they can get away with it!

 

sorry if it seemed i was making you out to be 1 who would do it!

[Vipa]

I'm not sure that you are going to get the response and data you are after asking that specific question on this forum...

 

posession of a FAC rated air weapon without the relevant ticket is a firearms offence and carries the MANDATORY 5 year prison senence along with it!! So... it would stand to reason that anyone who has been 'done' for this is unlikely to thereafter spend thier free time reading and contributing to a shooting forum as they will, as well as spending some time behind bars, also have a lifetime ban!

 

Just my take on it

Edited December 22, 2010 by Vipa

[Billy.]

The thing is, you might not own an 'FAC rated air gun' but put the wrong pellet in and you could quite easily be firing at 12.1ft/lbs. You're not going to get an FAC for an increase like that.

 

I'm not up on energies etc, but I was always under the impression a rifle isn't 12 ft/lbs, it's a measurement of the energy the pellet carries at the muzzle.

 

So, as some pellets work better and worse between some rifles, you might chrono your gun and it's 12ft/lbs, but stick another brand through and it's 12.2 or whatever. Does that now make your gun FAC because it fires 12.2 with one ammo, 12 with another and 11.8 with a third?!

Edited December 22, 2010 by Billy.

[The Duncan]

The thing is, you might not own an 'FAC rated air gun' but put the wrong pellet in and you could quite easily be firing at 12.1ft/lbs. You're not going to get an FAC for an increase like that.

 

I'm not up on energies etc, but I was always under the impression a rifle isn't 12 ft/lbs, it's a measurement of the energy the pellet carries at the muzzle.

 

So, as some pellets work better and worse between some rifles, you might chrono your gun and it's 12ft/lbs, but stick another brand through and it's 12.2 or whatever. Does that now make your gun FAC because it fires 12.2 with one ammo, 12 with another and 11.8 with a third?!

Bottom line is: if your air rifle is capable of exceeding the limit, just by switching ammo, then you're asking for a nicking.

 

Back to the thread - has anyone been done/had their rifle taken for testing by the old bill?

What was the outcome?

 

Cheers

 

Duncan :yp:

[Dekers]

I'm not sure that you are going to get the response and data you are after asking that specific question on this forum...

 

posession of a FAC rated air weapon without the relevant ticket is a firearms offence and carries the MANDATORY 5 year prison senence along with it!! So... it would stand to reason that anyone who has been 'done' for this is unlikely to thereafter spend thier free time reading and contributing to a shooting forum as they will, as well as spending some time behind bars, also have a lifetime ban!

 

Just my take on it

 

 

Yep, that's the theory, but as we all know it certainly isn't the fact, many people commit all sort of firearms offenses and don't get 5 years.

 

I'm just curious about the possible "mistakes" just over 12ft lb...not the blatant mick taking!

[kent]

Slightly over power air rifle topics crop up fairly regularly, but my gut feeling is that the Police do not spend all their time checking air rifles.

 

Yep, sure, if someone is being a **** then they may have a look, but who has been done or knows anyone who has been in trouble?

 

NOT pub talk, NOT I heard, Not my mate told me about someone, NOT I read on a forum, etc., etc., FACT only.

 

My dealings with the police and firearms have been numerous, and many FEO I have found to be clueless, the general beat bobby has a knowledge level on the minus scale when it come to firearms and the law surrounding them.

 

So, I'm curious to hear who has fallen foul of the law re 12ft lb, and in what circumstances..and what was the outcome!

 

I doubt you will as destruction of the gun in exchange for dropping procecution seems the norm at such small power level differences nobody wants to go to court and after all is it in the public interest. All guns that look like they might stray over can be adjusted at little cost or difference to performance and yes i do mean all. Like you say though if you stay on the right side of the law and doubt it isnt even going to be sent off for forensic testing

[HW682]

posession of a FAC rated air weapon without the relevant ticket is a firearms offence and carries the MANDATORY 5 year prison senence along with it!!

 

Doesn't the mandatory 5 year sentence only apply to offences involving Section 5 firearms?

[Dekers]

I doubt you will as destruction of the gun in exchange for dropping procecution seems the norm at such small power level differences nobody wants to go to court and after all is it in the public interest. All guns that look like they might stray over can be adjusted at little cost or difference to performance and yes i do mean all. Like you say though if you stay on the right side of the law and doubt it isnt even going to be sent off for forensic testing

 

 

Perhaps I'm digging to deep.....we hear all sorts of tales, anecdotes, my mate told me etc., etc., but where is the reality...do they destroy the guns , where did you "hear" this, I'm not dissing your comments at all, but this is the sort of comment we hear all the time, .......see where I'm coming from.

 

My mate got locked up, my mate got away with it, my mate agreed to have his gun destroyed.....is this all talk, or folklore or suggestion or forum comment or.....?

 

It just seems as soon as someone starts a thread about close to, or just over 12ft lb, we get all these tales coming out of the closet.

 

 

Just curious!

[Dekers]

Doesn't the mandatory 5 year sentence only apply to offences involving Section 5 firearms?

 

 

Whatever, it may be legally mandatory, but Judges very often DO NOT apply it, so how does that work, perhaps another thread hey!

[HW682]

Don't want to derail this thread...but a few cases discused here (scroll down to case law) http://www.wikicrimeline.co.uk/index.php?title=Minimum_sentence_for_certain_firearms_offences

 

Hope it is considered on topic though to discuss what the potential penlty could be for the offence you are talking about. (I know you like to discus facts and actual legislation rather than hearsay)

 

Edit to add one more link, CPS sentencing manual. For section 1 offence sentencing range is from absolute discharge to 7 years http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/sentencing_manual/section_1_firearms_act/index.html

Edited December 23, 2010 by HW682

[DIVERD]

I have not heard of anyone being prosecuted but a few years ago i owned a scuba and field sports shop. we regularly chronoed airguns and occassionally found ones, normally second hand that had been tampered with and were subsiquently at or over 12fl/lb. This was done in a number of ways i inderstand, springs, washers and spacers and even changing the gas in a PCP, i remember we discussed this here some time ago.

We also found that some pellets varied the chrono reading considerably. I forget the details of which ones but the difference was significant.

 

However i think the police, should they believe that a crime had been committed and felt that the gun may be over powered would use a veriety of pellets and not prosecute for 12.1lb. In the same way as they would not prosecute at 71mph on a motorway. I think generally they would have no particular issue with a gun that shot from 11.5 to a fraction over 12 if it was un molested and the owner had no knowledge of the power issue. I am sure they would impound it and the owner would have a few sleepless nights.

 

However, and quite rightly so, if a gun was regularly throwing 13+ or more then i think you would be in very serious problems, particularly if they found evidence of tampering. In the shop you would not believe how often people, often as they bought a new gun asked how to up the power, before they had even shot it. I also remember selling a gun, fitting the scope and then the customer asking where he could shoot it, and thought he could shoot rabbits in the local town park at night. I lost the sale but would far rather this than loose my RFD of have someone hurt.

 

I only remmeber once the police visiting the shop with an issue. Some genious was shooting pigeons of the roof of his house in Aberdeen city centre and the police were called. They visited the shop and looked over our erecored of the sale. Even when you have done everything corectly it is a horrible experience.

 

This is just my take on it, i no longer shoot an air rifle, so it is no longer an issue for me, and my info could be 3-4 years out of dat as i sold up at the beginning of the recession

 

D

[UKPoacher]

I have prosecuted someone for an over powered air rifle. Mind you, they were also found guilty of aggravated tresspass, taking game on a Sunday, using a lamp to take partridge at night and poaching so I had cause to chrono the HW80. It was over 18 ft/lb and as rough as a bear's posterior to shoot.

 

Most bobbies know virtually nothing about air rifle law. That said, I know virtually nothing about tresspass on railways law, much of the new Fraud Act and legislation covering HGVs. There are thousands of laws and police officers cannot be expected to know everything about everything especially little used legislation. They can access specialist knowledge quite easily though. Equally it can be said that most shooters know nothing about firearms laws. Here I am talking about the many thousands of air rifle owners rather than the registered shotgun and FAC owners.

 

From my part if I catch someone on the street with an air rifle in a case and they don't have permission AND they have no previous I will issue a written, recorded warning on the spot and send them straight home. If I catch someone on a footpath, field, common area, etc with the gun out of the bag and no permission to be there then its straight to arrest and seizure. If I suspect the weapon to be over I can get it chrono'd by out local firearms officers and should it be over I can send it off for a proper examination. Usually when I catch someone they are carrying a SMK or Turkish spring rifle that is never going to see 12 ft/lb so it just gets crushed.

 

I have only sent one rifle off to forensics in over twenty years and cannot recall anyone else doing it. Usually its a prosection or caution for possession of an air rifle and confiscation / destruction.

[brian28]

copy

From my part if I catch someone on the street with an air rifle in a case and they don't have permission AND they have no previous I will issue a written, recorded warning on the spot and send them straight home.

end copy uk poacher

As far as i know not an offence to be on street with cased air rifle or shotgun.

 

same gun shooting two diff brands of pellets gave this difference 21 grain pellet 11.9 ftp 12grain pellet 9.5 ftp

[Dave-G]

I'm not sure that you are going to get the response and data you are after asking that specific question on this forum... Darned right there mate

 

posession of a FAC rated air weapon without the relevant ticket is a firearms offence and carries the MANDATORY 5 year prison senence along with it!! So... it would stand to reason that anyone who has been 'done' for this is unlikely to thereafter spend thier free time reading and contributing to a shooting forum as they will, as well as spending some time behind bars, also have a lifetime ban!

 

Just my take on it

 

I think you'll find an over powered air rifle is an unlicenced section one rifle - attracting a 12 month mandatory sentence, rather than an illegal firearm which attracts the 5 years you speak of.

[UKPoacher]

 

As far as i know not an offence to be on street with cased air rifle or shotgun.

 

Exactly my point. It has been an arrestable offence to carry an air rifle in a public place without reasonable excuse snce the Violent Crime Act 2007 was brought in. Reasonable excuse does not cover going down the railway lines to do a bit of shooting if you don't have permission.

[The Duncan]

I have prosecuted someone for an over powered air rifle. Mind you, they were also found guilty of aggravated tresspass, taking game on a Sunday, using a lamp to take partridge at night and poaching so I had cause to chrono the HW80. It was over 18 ft/lb and as rough as a bear's posterior to shoot.

 

 

So the issue with that chap in particular wasn't really his over powered (and rough to shoot) HW80. He was obviously not your average law-abiding shooter!

 

Funnily enough, an hw80 can be a pussucat to shoot at 16-17fpe

 

With the people you've nicked/cautioned relating to airgun offences (wrong place, no permission, gun out of case in public area etc) were most of these 'kids' Clive?

Most of the people I've met or known who own airguns are FT, HFT (or ex of either) or fellow bunny bashers with a good deal of respect of the law.

Funnily enough, most shooters I've met who weren't so bothered about laws pertaining to firearms were shotgunners.

One bunch were on my permission in North Norfolk, quite illegally as it happens becasuse the farm and land had changed hands 8 months previously and the new owners hadn't agreed to anyone shooting on there, apart from my shooting partner and I. The land was no longer part of the syndicate.

I went over to investigate them when they arrived (they'd wrecked our rabbit ambush anyway with the noise they were making), but even once they realised that they should not have been there, they said they wouldn't be any longer than an hour!

I said the police would be there a lot faster than that.

 

It turns out that the farmer had rejected their request for shooting permission on his land :blink: And these people weren't thugs by any stretch - well-to-do types with expensive hardwear.

And then there's me who won't cross a 3ft bridle way with the gun out its case

[Dekers]

 

So I make that one possible person charged with an over power rifle...but only as part of a bigger scheme, and apparently around 50% over power................................

 

Hardly a flush of prosecutions for a fraction over 12 ft lb then.

 

Hey, Hey, Hey...just be careful out there anyway, and stay the right side of the law, it could be YOU!

[The Duncan]

18 fpe is like being 5 times over the blood/alcohol limit, rather than 1% over.

The law is the law though and you are dead right about being careful out there - if we are all squeaky clean on the power levels, no-one gets nicked (apart from the scroat that don't give a monkey's).

:yp:

[Alanl]

The Home Affairs Committee has been looking at Firearms Legislation recently, and has issued a report with various recommendations. In that report there are some figures concerning air gun crime. They dont recommend any additional rules for airguns, as the rate of illegality is falling. There is a table showing the different types of convictions too.

Link here:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmhaff/447/447i.pdf

 

HTH

Alan.

[Billy.]

Airguns should be measured on the total energy they exert, not the energy which a pellet fired from it carries.

 

At least if you stuck a tube on the end of an unloaded .22 or .177 you'd be able to measure it and it'd be consistent.

[colin lad]

dekers not exactly what you asked for but i do remember reading an article in the angling times a few years back about someone who took his over powered air gun fishing and was caught shooting cormorants and if i remember he got 12 months for it

 

colin

[colin lad]

sorry entered post twice

Edited December 26, 2010 by colin lad