webber Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) I had a meeting with our gamekeeper on Thursday to sort out the pigeon roost shooting in February. That done, our conversation moved on to the probable cost of shooting for the 2011-12 season. Jim buys in day olds and does an excellent job of rearing them. He started by asking me what the probable price of gas would be? It was a fair question, but one that I couldn't give an honest answer to. The price of propane is currently at an all time high, but should fall considerably by the time the keepers are ready to order. I do however seriously doubt that it will fall to 2010 prices. Jim had already commenced pricing up his pellet and crumb requirements, and reported astronomical rises in price. His regular supplier was talking £550/ tonne, and a cheaper alternative used by a keeper that I also supply with gas was quoting £400, but was unsure as to how long the price could be held. They advised that they had been quoted £225 for wheat, quite frightening when you look back not too far to wheat at £90 / tonne. The cost of vehicle fuel has risen dramatically and will rise again. VAT as we all know has risen by 2.5% and this affects the price of virtually everything that the shoot buys in. Most small shoots are not VAT registered and can not therefore claim back any VAT, yet the VAT content of their purchases has to be passed on to members. I do consider myself to be an optimist, but the cost of game shooting next season looks grim. Like many others, I will dig ever deeper, and make economies elsewhere to fund the sport and hobby that I love. How do you see it? webber Edited January 9, 2011 by webber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMT Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think on our small syndicate we are going to have to work that bit harder to try and keep the birds we put down. This year our return has been terrible. Instead of putting down say 1000 birds and get 20% return for 200 birds shot. We could put down 800 and try and return 25 for the same number of birds. Our feeding needs to be better organised and we need to start some dogging in on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wy111 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Been doing some number crunching myself. Not a good outlook! It's looking at between a 10% and 20% increase in subs, even with a reduction in birds put down! One way to reduce the increase, in our case, as we shoot 7 a side, is to increase membership by 2 guns, to 8 a side. I'm just wondering what the breeders will do, if demand is not as high as normal and they are left with surplus stock, maybe some cheap(sic) bargains to be had late on. Our shoot meeting is in March, so will be a lot to discuss! Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
majordisorder Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I had a meeting with our gamekeeper on Thursday to sort out the pigeon roost shooting in February. That done, our conversation moved on to the probable cost of shooting for the 2011-12 season. Jim buys in day olds and does an excellent job of rearing them. He started by asking me what the probable price of gas would be? It was a fair question, but one that I couldn't give an honest answer to. The price of propane is currently at an all time high, but should fall considerably by the time the keepers are ready to order. I do however seriously doubt that it will fall to 2010 prices. Jim had already commenced pricing up his pellet and crumb requirements, and reported astronomical rises in price. His regular supplier was talking £550/ tonne, and a cheaper alternative used by a keeper that I also supply with gas was quoting £400, but was unsure as to how long the price could be held. They advised that they had been quoted £225 for wheat, quite frightening when you look back not too far to wheat at £90 / tonne. The cost of vehicle fuel has risen dramatically and will rise again. VAT as we all know has risen by 2.5% and this affects the price of virtually everything that the shoot buys in. Most small shoots are not VAT registered and can not therefore claim back any VAT, yet the VAT content of their purchases has to be passed on to members. I do consider myself to be an optimist, but the cost of game shooting next season looks grim. Like many others, I will dig ever deeper, and make economies elsewhere to fund the sport and hobby that I love. How do you see it? webber Why not get the shoot registered for VAT then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devon Fox Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm just wondering what the breeders will do, if demand is not as high as normal and they are left with surplus stock, maybe some cheap(sic) bargains to be had late on. Our shoot meeting is in March, so will be a lot to discuss! Dave Struggle like hell! We rear about 150,000 birds, and orders are being placed later & later in the hope of a bargain, something has to give. The bigger commercial shoots do not seem to be affected - We have seen a dramatic decrease in the smaller syndicate orders the 100 - 500 bird orders. Its going to be tough thats for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
both_barrels Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I hope we will see grain and feed prices fall for next season - if there are no significant natural disasters I think we will. I think it will be at least 5 years before VAT falls back to 17.5%. I agree with you Mr Webber, we will all need to dig deeper and make savings elsewhere to be able to go out and have the kind of day's shooting we had yesterday in S Lancs. Great shooting and great company. Both Barrels, Wigan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scutt Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 we run on a tight budget now walk and stand (no beaters)incubate 1/2 our birds and buy in poults allways keep some corn from previous year to start of the feeding but we have had a lot of damage done to our pen by the snow so our little reserve of funds will go on materials for the pen to be fixed we won't be having a shoot dinner unless the guns pay for it. So if we still want our sport we are going to have to up the fees.hope the rent does'nt go up i will keep as i have told the wife to cut down on her shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 For all shoots, large and small the major costs are poults and feed. Many large shoots band together to form a buying group to gain extra discounts when purchasing feed so it makes sense for small shoots to do the same. Same goes for selling to the gamedealer. Also why not try the same when buying in poults, quite a saving could be made. Lastly aim for a much higher return, serious dogging in pays dividends and is worth the extra time. Aim for a 50% return which in many cases would mean that you could sell an extra gun. Corn futures prices are high so don't expect the price to drop to £90 next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortune82 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Perhaps Im being a doom and gloom merchant but I can see a time in the not so distant future when game shooting becomes too expensive for the majority of people who can afford it at the moment. Population increase globally and the demand for more land for bio-fuels will drive the cost of grain even higher. Oil prices are only going to go one way and the wholesale cost of gas is also expected to increase as it has been statistically low for the past few years compared to oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apache Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think it will be at least 5 years before VAT falls back to 17.5%. I don't think they will ever drop it. Seriously Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmateX Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 I would think it very unlikely for the vat rate to drop back down to 17.5%. On the plus side it makes it easier to work out in your head. My pig food has gone up £80/t over the last month from £220/t i wouldn't think it unreasonable for a similar proportion rise in game feed, time will tell. One thing is for sure it will cost me more to rear a poult this year than last. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 This is based on no more than wishful thinking but surely the price of wheat cannot go above £200 !?!, a decent harvest in Russia and the States/Canada and prices should come right down, I know alot of farmers has sold next years harvest already at around £ 140 a ton so somebody somewhere will make a shed load if prices are £200. It was all doom and gloom this summer with pellets and gas at high prices and then the high wheat price that followed. But there was a glut of cheap poults in August, I bought 400 at £2.50 each from an advert in ST, I know many game farmers were desparate to get rid of excess stock, especially the ones who did not have a game shoot(s) ran together with the game farm. There were some genuine bargains out there. I guess though if you are an organised shoot then you have to order poults well in advance and cannot rely on late summer bargains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted January 9, 2011 Report Share Posted January 9, 2011 Its going to hit everyone in some way with the price of wheat and pellets and so on . For us we dont buy any wheat we save as much as possible from the harvest but pellets we get through no end . In the cold snap we went through 4 ton in 8 days and at £450 a ton its not cheap yes half was being eaten by pigeons but we need it out there as some of the parts never come off pellets . It shows things are going to be tough when the boss says we are selling 3 days next year when for the last 20 years we have only ever sold 1 day each year ,but on the up side he is telling us he wants more birds which cant be a bad thing . Our return this year is not going to be as good as normal due to loosing a shoot and poor weather the last 2 shoots but we are still at the moment looking around the 60% but normaly its around 75% . Have a good end to the season guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprinter Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Crikey there's some doom and gloom on this thread, judging by the replies so far we must be about the only shoot in the country still running with (growing) surplus funds. Certainly no rise is planned for the forseeable? Having said that we are very careful about how we spend our money and all tasks are shared around the syndicate by way of weekly work parties and daily checks when the poults turn up. Wheat is sourced (half going rate) from the syndicate farm who sees it as us doing him a service for cleaning out his barn also being a very keen conservationist he sees that our feeders keep a lot of gods other little creatures going through the hard times. Pellets are delivered on the back of another large order locally (saves delivery charge), then we go round with a motley assortment of 4x4 and hand-ball them back to our shoot on delivery day. If we need another pen or pen repairs, someone on the syndicate will always know a contact for mesh, another will know who has the cheapest posts, someone else will come up with half price hog rings, a fence post bokker (heart attack tool) will appear on free loan. Chainsaws, strimmers, hedge cutters, generators etc all can be called in FOC if enough notice is given. Drums for feeders are always sought and if any syndicate member sees one for the right price, free or close, it is snapped up and squirreled away until needed. Some cover crops are free in the form of sunflower or pollen corners, for other bits we can usually steal a little bit of rotated set-aside stubble if the subsidy doesn't cover it. As long as we can prep and drill it ourselves the only cost is the seed and diesel (oh and breakages - if you bend it you mend it!). If we cant prep and drill we have to pay the farm hands time. Next year we are going to try and negotiate for a couple of corners of standing wheat to be left :yp: Now for the figures, we are 16 members (capped with a waiting list) of which 11-13 turn up on any given shoot day, we put down 450 assorted game birds of which we aim to recover 40% which is an average of 22.5 birds a shoot over 8 days. Obviously there are good days (40 odd) and bad ones (12). We pay under £2k rent (fixed for 5 years) and our syndicate fee is £300. The best bit is that it is a driven shoot with a couple of back guns (with beaters, and a picker-up or two)and not a walk 1 stand 1 So as you can see we are a world away from a commercial shoot (although we do sell 2 guns on the big day - big waiting list), but neither are we a walk and stand. Hell it can be a lot of work but it is all forgotten when the 1st bird of the day is bouncing along the field behind you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RC45 Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 I would think it very unlikely for the vat rate to drop back down to 17.5%. On the plus side it makes it easier to work out in your head. DC has said the VAT increase is permanent!! :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenyan Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 (edited) Its going to hit everyone in some way with the price of wheat and pellets and so on . For us we dont buy any wheat we save as much as possible from the harvest but pellets we get through no end . In the cold snap we went through 4 ton in 8 days and at £450 a ton its not cheap yes half was being eaten by pigeons but we need it out there as some of the parts never come off pellets . It shows things are going to be tough when the boss says we are selling 3 days next year when for the last 20 years we have only ever sold 1 day each year ,but on the up side he is telling us he wants more birds which cant be a bad thing . Our return this year is not going to be as good as normal due to loosing a shoot and poor weather the last 2 shoots but we are still at the moment looking around the 60% but normaly its around 75% . Have a good end to the season guys I think you need to go back and check your quoted figures. In regards to quants feed ,time period and returns. Edited January 10, 2011 by Kenyan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenyan Posted January 10, 2011 Report Share Posted January 10, 2011 Now for the figures, we are 16 members (capped with a waiting list) of which 11-13 turn up on any given shoot day, we put down 450 assorted game birds of which we aim to recover 40% which is an average of 22.5 birds a shoot over 8 days. Obviously there are good days (40 odd) and bad ones (12). We pay under £2k rent (fixed for 5 years) and our syndicate fee is £300. The best bit is that it is a driven shoot with a couple of back guns (with beaters, and a picker-up or two)and not a walk 1 stand 1 16 members, 8 days, 450 head, 2 sold guns, £300 plus working a duty roster. Seems a great deal of effort for very little. IMO On some days a good number of the guns can't pull the trigger more than twice in a day. I know its not all about pulling the trigger. But there come a point when you have to decide whether its all worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sprinter Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 16 members, 8 days, 450 head, 2 sold guns, £300 plus working a duty roster. Seems a great deal of effort for very little. IMO On some days a good number of the guns can't pull the trigger more than twice in a day. I know its not all about pulling the trigger. But there come a point when you have to decide whether its all worth it. Agreed, but you can't expect to spend all day blasting birds out of the sky for what amounts to £37.50 a day? I have been on £300 a peg bought days and have drawn unlucky, now that is disapointing especially when pegs around you are getting good birds over them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 I think you need to go back and check your quoted figures. In regards to quants feed ,time period and returns. No i dont think i do thankyou ! Our returns are very good yes due to having big shoots all around us plus the fact the work is put in all year round and for the fact its a partridge shoot not pheasants . As for time periodit was 8 days of snow and the fact that we have over 250 pellet feeders which at that point were filled twice a day thats some going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Agreed, but you can't expect to spend all day blasting birds out of the sky for what amounts to £37.50 a day? I have been on £300 a peg bought days and have drawn unlucky, now that is disapointing especially when pegs around you are getting good birds over them. Thats what i call good value you could not buy 1 bird on ours for that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenyan Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 No i dont think i do thankyou ! Our returns are very good yes due to having big shoots all around us plus the fact the work is put in all year round and for the fact its a partridge shoot not pheasants . As for time periodit was 8 days of snow and the fact that we have over 250 pellet feeders which at that point were filled twice a day thats some going If you say so Tomi. :lol: Anybody else catch a whiff of something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenyan Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) Thats what i call good value you could not buy 1 bird on ours for that Partridges at £37.50+ per bird............really??? You do realise that works out at £75+ per brace. I hope that include that VAT. :lol: Edited January 11, 2011 by Kenyan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 (edited) If you say so Tomi. :lol: Anybody else catch a whiff of something? What ever believe what you wont to believe Partridges at £37.50+ per bird............really??? Does that include that VAT. :lol: Well not as much as £37.50 but still close at £30 a bird ! But only 1 day a year is sold and its too the same guy each year . Most shoots round here are £30 plus per bird Edited January 11, 2011 by proTOM1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenyan Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 What ever believe what you wont to believe Thank you. I will. Some of us have been doing this for a good number of years and actually know what we're talking about. All the best Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
proTOM1 Posted January 11, 2011 Report Share Posted January 11, 2011 Thank you. I will. Some of us have been doing this for a good number of years and actually know what we're talking about. All the best Very good for you and good on you Ive been doing it for 10 years and the keeper for 45 years so really i go on his workings and im fairly sure he knows what he is doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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