CharlieT Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Mr Logic You are of course quite correct, what is writen is the only terms one is bound by. Your fac like mine clearly states "or any other lawful quarry" I am merley trying to make the point that this wording is I feel not as all encompassing as some would suggest and I agree totally with the comment made above by kdubya where he said " is simply an attempt to read a license to suit in order that they feel justified in shooting fox with an HMR or 22 rimmie" Charlie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 what you have to remember is any of us could get prosecuted for causing unnecessary suffering were we found to have used an entirely insufficient caliber to wound an animal. Unlikely but to my mind it just puts the ball in our court and lets face it we are the ones that are out shooting rather than FEO's reading from the rule book. It really is no different to having a shotgun and choosing what you shoot with different shot types and what you don't shoot at. In theory you could shoot boar with 6's if you really wanted to but you would be a fool to. The other thing to remember when we mention Boar and Foxes is cubs still count as foxes and are ideal HMR fodder and indeed weaner size boar would be fine with .22cf so while a lot of it is theory in practice there is a bit more to think about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Mr Logic You are of course quite correct, what is writen is the only terms one is bound by. Your fac like mine clearly states "or any other lawful quarry" I am merley trying to make the point that this wording is I feel not as all encompassing as some would suggest and I agree totally with the comment made above by kdubya where he said " is simply an attempt to read a license to suit in order that they feel justified in shooting fox with an HMR or 22 rimmie" Charlie Under normal circumstances I'd say you're entitled to your opinion, but it's so wrong that in this case I don't feel you are, tbh. Simple fact is that both I and other have had a new ticket with this wording in place of old, more specific wording - the Police are using it to make their lives easier and grant flexibility. Any other legal quarry can only mean that - so anyone then shooting a fox with their rimfire is PERFECTLY LEGAL. It's not conjectural, it's not 'reading into the FAC', or anything like that - it's there in black and white. As Alex says - other legislation covers against you using a gun that's blatantly not man enough - fox with a rimfire is very different than boar with a rimfire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Under normal circumstances I'd say you're entitled to your opinion, but it's so wrong that in this case I don't feel you are, tbh. Simple fact is that both I and other have had a new ticket with this wording in place of old, more specific wording - the Police are using it to make their lives easier and grant flexibility. Any other legal quarry can only mean that - so anyone then shooting a fox with their rimfire is PERFECTLY LEGAL. It's not conjectural, it's not 'reading into the FAC', or anything like that - it's there in black and white. As Alex says - other legislation covers against you using a gun that's blatantly not man enough - fox with a rimfire is very different than boar with a rimfire! so your basically saying charlie or anyone with an opinion that differs from yours does not deserve an opinion? bit oafish that! do you still stamp your feet and cry when you dont get your own way? As for the "new tickets being non conjectural I would say the so called revised wording that changes quarry from calibre specific to the term "lawfull quarry" makes it nothing other than conjectural? fox is as we know lawfull quarry so now what's to stop someone with FAC air on ticket saying hmmn its close, its lawfull quarry I think I will have a pop at that fox thats just walked in front of me. My ticket renewal was last june its still quarry specific and the quarry is identified specifficly against each gun, hmr and fox are not listed for my .22 rimmie or HMR I have .223 or .243 for them, and I have no issue at all with that,as I know that with the .243 or .223 its either a clean kill or a death very soon after if wounded, plus of course I know that if I follow my conditions I stay legal, or should I take a pot at a fox injure it get seen by an anti who calls the police, who then inspect weapon and license only to find me in breach of the conditions for calibre and quarry which sees me in the brown stuff? Oh silly me I forgot of course when Im up before the judge I can tell him he is nowt but a wig wearing dumbo and I must be aquited as Mr logic and dekers says its ok to shoot any lawfull quarry with hmr or .22 (contrary to my license) and you say lawfull quarry makes it clearer? your having a giraffe KW Edited March 21, 2011 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 so how do you choose what to shoot with a shotgun Kdubya? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) so how do you choose what to shoot with a shotgun Kdubya? how does that one come into it? or does you SGC have quarry conditions on it? oh heck silly me I know how it comes into it? its another play, spin, twist. or whatever in the name of "justification" KW Edited March 21, 2011 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) so your basically saying charlie or anyone with an opinion that differs from yours does not deserve an opinion? bit oafish that! do you still stamp your feet and cry when you dont get your own way? As for the "new tickets being non conjectural I would say the so called revised wording that changes quarry from calibre specific to the term "lawfull quarry" makes it nothing other than conjectural? fox is as we know lawfull quarry so now what's to stop someone with FAC air on ticket saying hmmn its close, its lawfull quarry I think I will have a pop at that fox thats just walked in front of me. My ticket renewal was last june its still quarry specific and the quarry is identified specifficly against each gun, hmr and fox are not listed for my .22 rimmie or HMR I have .223 or .243 for them, and I have no issue at all with that,as I know that with the .243 or .223 its either a clean kill or a death very soon after if wounded, plus of course I know that if I follow my conditions I stay legal, or should I take a pot at a fox injure it get seen by an anti who calls the police, who then inspect weapon and license only to find me in breach of the conditions for calibre and quarry which sees me in the brown stuff? Oh silly me I forgot of course when Im up before the judge I can tell him he is nowt bit a wig wearing dumbo and I must be aquited as Mr logic and dekers says its ok to shoot any lawfull quarry with hmr or .22 (ONLY IF YOUR FAC IS SO CONDITIONED, in your case apparently not) (contrary to my license) and you say lawfull quarry makes it clearer? your having a giraffe KW Have another go at reading some of the above posts! Yes chap, but I would not be quite so stupid as to call the Judge nowt bit a wig wearing dumbo . Did I miss something, can you produce some documentation that will stand up in court saying the meaning of the word ANY has now changed and doesn't mean ANY, it means Lessor! Edited March 21, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 how does that one come into it? or does you SGC have quarry conditions on it? oh heck silly me I know how it comes into it? its another play, spin, twist. or whatever in the name of "justification" KW not in the slightest its purely to say that with a shotgun we are given the credit of using the gun for suitable quarry. Why is it different with a firearm, at the point they deem us suitable to have one why should they then have to say but you can only use it on this or that. The Any lawful quarry gives the shooter the freedom to choose a suitable gun and makes everyones life simpler. Whether its someone with a .243 sitting up a high seat and seeing a crow it lets you shoot it. With fox and deer on you can't. My ticket has pest control and deer on no specifics on what rifle the same apply to everything, so in effect I have a fair amount of leeway to choose an appropriate gun. The issue comes with FEO's who try and dictate this gun is too big this one too small etc etc with no idea really what they are talking about. When I take out a shotgun I can in theory shoot any quarry in the country other than deer (except in certain conditions) no one says anything about it they just expect you to shoot within the law and don't even think it may not be suitable for everything thats left to you. Unlike your normal approach to the establishment it appears you like to be bent over by your FEO and expect him to give you lots of conditions Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Here are my additional conditions: As you can see i have each calibre rifle listed seperate and what i am allowed to shoot with each calibre. My .22 Rimfire was conditioned for fox but i asked for it to be ammended as i think that .22Lr is a wholey inadequate calibre for fox in any conditions, before people start telling me otherwise, this is my personal opinion. When i varied about 18months ago i asked for the "Any other lawful quarry" and that was met with a sharp intake of breath and "we dont do that" My shooting buddy got his renewal back two weeks ago, during his interveiw he also asked for the above, his FEO said "Ooh no, no, no, NO!!! He is with Warwickshire. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 er you've only posted 1 to 4? 5 is additional conditions which may be added to your license,mine is specific to what gun and what quarry,so its unfair to say he has no fac I often In fact always now, believe the whole saga of interpretation of "legal quarry"/ vermin is simply an attempt to read a license to suit in order that they feel justified in shooting fox with an HMR or 22 rimmie, KW please see this post.... http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/157890-whos-had-hmr-or-wmr-approved-for-fox/page__view__findpost__p__1362517 i'd already posted 5 onwards, and the OP was suggesting that points 1-4 had calibre specific info which they don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Here are my additional conditions: As you can see i have each calibre rifle listed seperate and what i am allowed to shoot with each calibre. My .22 Rimfire was conditioned for fox but i asked for it to be ammended as i think that .22Lr is a wholey inadequate calibre for fox in any conditions, before people start telling me otherwise, this is my personal opinion. When i varied about 18months ago i asked for the "Any other lawful quarry" and that was met with a sharp intake of breath and "we dont do that" My shooting buddy got his renewal back two weeks ago, during his interveiw he also asked for the above, his FEO said "Ooh no, no, no, NO!!! He is with Warwickshire. Ian. now thats as it should be clear and concise and yes your right should you feel it not right then dont, inlike other posters who think perhaps not, but the ambiguity of my ticket allows me to justify it my ticket is much like yours mine even has the gun serial numbers listed against quarry, and unlike alx4 I dont feel bumbed with these conditions, in fact it helped? when I applied for fox on hmr I was bluntly told NO but we will grant you .243 which I gladly accepted, then went out and did a dsc 1 as they also gave me deer condition KW Edited March 21, 2011 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 please see this post.... http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/157890-whos-had-hmr-or-wmr-approved-for-fox/page__view__findpost__p__1362517 i'd already posted 5 onwards, and the OP was suggesting that points 1-4 had calibre specific info which they don't. still means nothing to your reply? IE perhaps you dont have fac? as 5 on mine covers quarry and lists guns against, how do you know charlies is not the same? KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Have another go at reading some of the above posts! Yes chap, but I would not be quite so stupid as to call the Judge nowt bit a wig wearing dumbo . Did I miss something, can you produce some documentation that will stand up in court saying the meaning of the word ANY has now changed and doesn't mean ANY, it means Lessor! I beg to differ KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 so the conditions restrict you and it helps :blink: If you were doing any keeping and were snaring foxes you couldn't use your HMR for despatch if it was with you. If you saw a cub while out with the same rifle you would legally have to leave it. I can't see how this is not restrictive, the same with magpies and crows they get it whichever gun I've got I'd hate to have to leave them. Its fine if you are playing in the country but if you try and run a shoot then you'd either have to carry the .243 when out rabbiting or leave foxes when you have a perfectly acceptable gun at the right range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beardo Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 as i said Kdubya, i'd already posted 5 onwards which are the specific conditions applicable to each user (and not the generic points 1-4), if the OP had a FAC they'd know that and not ask to see points 1-4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Not sure how happy my friend would be (a keeper) if a fox toddled under a high seat I was in (which has happened on numerous occasions) and I left it be because I had a 22LR in my hands....at sub 40 yards I wouldn't think twice about shooting a fox, infact i used to keep a 5 shot mag with HV's in my pocket exactly for this purpose. And yes i do have fox as a condition on my 22LR... Regards, Gixer Edited March 21, 2011 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 have to say I've shot a couple of stoats with the .223 again same applies serious vermin round pens, not one I'd gain any favours by leaving Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Have another go at reading some of the above posts! Yes chap, but I would not be quite so stupid as to call the Judge nowt bit a wig wearing dumbo . Did I miss something, can you produce some documentation that will stand up in court saying the meaning of the word ANY has now changed and doesn't mean ANY, it means Lessor! I beg to differ KW Try again, avoiding the issue doesn't fool anyone, if you want to believe any means lessor you are welcome, but do not tell me or anyone else that is confusing, ANY IS ANY, just which part of that don't you understand? So, no chance you will be answering the question then, I had an education and I know what ANY means, let me ask the question again, show me where it means lessor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Under normal circumstances I'd say you're entitled to your opinion, but it's so wrong that in this case I don't feel you are, tbh. Simple fact is that both I and other have had a new ticket with this wording in place of old, more specific wording - the Police are using it to make their lives easier and grant flexibility. Any other legal quarry can only mean that - so anyone then shooting a fox with their rimfire is PERFECTLY LEGAL. It's not conjectural, it's not 'reading into the FAC', or anything like that - it's there in black and white. As Alex says - other legislation covers against you using a gun that's blatantly not man enough - fox with a rimfire is very different than boar with a rimfire! As you do not feel I am entitled to an opinion I will make no further comments on the subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 (edited) Try again, avoiding the issue doesn't fool anyone, if you want to believe any means lessor you are welcome, but do not tell me or anyone else that is confusing, ANY IS ANY, just which part of that don't you understand? So, no chance you will be answering the question then, I had an education and I know what ANY means, let me ask the question again, show me where it means lessor? Try reading I NEVER said it did understand? comprehend? take in ? by the way dont get fooled with education being linked to intelligence I know more than a few educated idiots. KW Edited March 21, 2011 by kdubya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
figgy Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Come on old chap who are these educated idiots what what?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 Come on old chap who are these educated idiots what what?? you bored mate? get back to work see you at ronnies sunday KW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vermincinerator Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 "Any other legal quarry" right my definition of this and why i wanted this wording on my FAC is: Any species which is not either protected or that is not exempted by other legislation preventing it being shot with the calibres i have on my FAC, simple! If i had this wording on my FAC it would allow me to use my own judgement as to what calibre i would use on what species, for instance i think my 257 is adequate for wild boar, i want to be able to make this decision myself. As it stands i do not have wild boar listed on my FAC and as of such cannot shoot them. Any other legal quarry also brings into the equation shooting game birds and wildfowl (when in season) with a suitable rifle, at the moment i cannot legally shoot a pheasant with my HMR because its not listed on my FAC. Ian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 you can't legally shoot a pheasant with a rifle anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 21, 2011 Report Share Posted March 21, 2011 As you do not feel I am entitled to an opinion I will make no further comments on the subject. Sorry Charlie I would like to clarify that post, it's not been taken quite how it was meant. My point, badly made, was that the particular opinion of the word ANY meaning LESSER is not one to which I believe anyone is entitled. It's not like we're arguing a fox is vermin, or if nuclear power is a good thing - those items have viewpoints where two views can exist, both people can be entitled to their opinion and they will never agree. This particular point is very clear. Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion where such diversity is allowed, but this isn't something negotiable. You did agree that the FAC forms the legal basis for any challege to the alleged offense of not following your FAC conditions, and on that basis, we are literally arguing about what the word 'any' means. If you can find me a respected dictionary which says 'any' means 'lesser' then I will give you £50. It's like trying to argue the earth is flat while someone shows you a picture taken from space - it's absurd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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