Mungler Posted March 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 The Yanks have moved their fleet just to be on the safe side (and because they got whiff of a tinsy bit of radiation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 The Yanks have moved their fleet just to be on the safe side (and because they got whiff of a tinsy bit of radiation). Probably from a leaky reactor on their air craft carrier or sub!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Not sure of the exact science but the hydrogen is not as a result of any radiation leakage but as a result of the chemical change water goes through when it is super heated, basically the two elements that make water, oxygen and hydrogen separate into their own parts, this is what created the hydrogen cloud and the explosion(s). Happy to be corrected if I am wrong..... You can't release hydrogen from water by heating it, all you get is steam. The steam however can be superheated but that will not cause the hydrogen or oxygen atoms to release their atomic bond. Apart from some exotic and impractical methods Electrolysis or catalytic reaction are the only real ways for it to be done. What you will get however, if you pour copious amounts of cold water over an incredibly hot surface (especially one capable of generating its own heat) is lots and lots of superheated steam that cause an immense amount of pressure to build up very quickly.. more than enough to blow the top of a building (half fill a tin can with water, put it on the stove, screw the lid back on, retire to a safe distance and...wait!) If you watch the footage of the explosion (well... the one I saw anyway) there were no flames... just billowing clouds. If that had been a hydrogen explosion there would have been a (very short lived) ball of fire visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Just hope the Nips keep that bloody reactor in check or there will be a ecological **** storm All this donate etc is just a bit too leftie for my tastes the world is in a **** place right now and we always donate and send aid etc well let's just send aid and manpower sod giving them money I begrudge it big time. The muzzies in Pakistan do you think they appreciate the millions that they recieved after their recent disater?? do you think the aid in question reached the correct people??? charity begins at home sort out our mess before running off to love the world up Oh and HYDROGEN IS the byproduct from running copious amounts of seawater/water through a superheated reactor with a couple of other light elements thrown in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Just hope the Nips keep that bloody reactor in check or there will be a ecological **** storm All this donate etc is just a bit too leftie for my tastes the world is in a **** place right now and we always donate and send aid etc well let's just send aid and manpower sod giving them money I begrudge it big time. The muzzies in Pakistan do you think they appreciate the millions that they recieved after their recent disater?? do you think the aid in question reached the correct people??? charity begins at home sort out our mess before running off to love the world up I'm inclined to agree with all of you re donations but let's not forget the sheer scale of this... doesn't really matter how rich a nation is, it is difficult to comprehend the amount of damage from a monetary standpoint... And although it sounds slightly mercinary and heartless, the human cost, so far hasn't been anywhere near as bad as other incidents, both natural & man made! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Incredible footage, wonder what happened to the guy who turned left in the white motor at the start of the film... hope to **** he had a clear road out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) Oh and HYDROGEN IS the byproduct from running copious amounts of seawater/water through a superheated reactor with a couple of other light elements thrown in. I'm not getting into an argument about schoolboy chemistry (even if I AM in a particulary 'Victor Meldrew' mood today!) You cannot extract Hydrogen from water by superheating it. Water behaves very oddly when superheated but it doesn't give off Hydrogen! There has to be something else... a catalyst... to create... oh... a 'catalytic reaction' The catalyst would not be a 'light element' it would be a highly reactive metal, Gallium works... So... if the sea water being used to cool the core is producing hydrogen, it is not the effects of superheating it that is the culprit, it is whatever reactive metal it has come into contact with on it's journey! If Super heating water caused the bonds to break down in a way that it would/could relaease the Hydrogen molecules, then you would be left with, oxygen molecules... what happens if you bring oxygen and hydrogen together? spontanious, explosive combustion! (acyually... this bit isn't strictly tru... included for dramatic effect.. to get to a point where there were only oxygen molecules left, ALL of the hydrogen molecules would have to be released, obviously hydrogen can be released from water without necessarily releasing oxygen ) Also, from a sheer stupity standpoint (the disaster managers, not you)... think about it... "oh ****... the reactor core is melting down... what should we do?" "I know... lets throw **** loads of sea water at it" "Isn't that likely to break down and produce S88t loads of hydrogen that will more than likely explode and rupture the containment vessel?" "Yeah... but what the hell... it'll make good footage for the news!" Joking aside... if this was the case, water would never be used for any cooling system dealing with very high temperatures but... it is... lots of them.. http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/world/9001133/q-a-dangers-posed-by-japans-quake-hit-atom-plant/ 6th paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheated_water All of it Edited March 14, 2011 by Vipa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flashman Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 When did you all become so thin-skinned about insulting the Japs? As for forgetting the past, the Japanese aren't quite so quick to let sleeping dogs lie. The shrines to the war dead are always well attended, indeed their Prime Ministers always attend ceremonies. You may compare it the the Cenotaph, but then we didn't build the Burma-Siam railway with POW slave labour or behead sick POWs. Who here has been to Asia? Opinions on Japan split the region: the Chinese roundly despise them for what happened in the 1930's, Hong Kongers will deal with anybody and the Taiwanese and Koreans were colonies of Japan until the end of the war so have some complex issues. As for the British empire's legacy, anybody who compares it to Japan's is ignorant on an epic scale. Look at the English law legacy across the Commonwealth, not just the white bits but places like India and Hong Kong. the lasting message is of building lasting monuments, whether it's Indian railways or HK legal & business institutions. It's the apologists running down the Empire legacy who damage our ongoing relationships abroad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) I'm not getting into an argument about schoolboy chemistry (even if I AM in a particulary 'Victor Meldrew' mood today!) You cannot extract Hydrogen from water by superheating it. Water behaves very oddly when superheated but it doesn't give off Hydrogen! There has to be something else... a catalyst... to create... oh... a 'catalytic reaction' The catalyst would not be a 'light element' it would be a highly reactive metal, Gallium works... So... if the sea water being used to cool the core is producing hydrogen, it is not the effects of superheating it that is the culprit, it is whatever reactive metal it has come into contact with on it's journey! If Super heating water caused the bonds to break down in a way that it would/could relaease the Hydrogen molecules, then you would be left with, oxygen molecules... what happens if you bring oxygen and hydrogen together? spontanious, explosive combustion! Also, from a sheer stupity standpoint (the disaster managers, not you)... think about it... "oh ****... the reactor core is melting down... what should we do?" "I know... lets throw **** loads of sea water at it" "Isn't that likely to break down and produce S88t loads of hydrogen that will more than likely explode and rupture the containment vessel?" "Yeah... but what the hell... it'll make good footage for the news!" Joking aside... if this was the case, water would never be used for any cooling system dealing with very high temperatures but... it is... lots of them.. http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/-/world/9001133/q-a-dangers-posed-by-japans-quake-hit-atom-plant/ 6th paragraph http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superheated_water All of it The reason sea water isn't usually allowed within a million miles of a reactor is due to the remarkable corrosive qualities of it. They are using it now as a "well it can't get any worse strategy" As for the seperation of water into it's two constituent parts ie hydrogen and oxygen can only be done at super heated temperatures using all sorts of magical techniques usually like you said involving some types of metal as a catalyst to begin the process well check out what reactors, sea water and building materials contain all the colours of the periodic table are there and trust me Hydrogen is being produced at an alarming rate and being vented to reduce the risk of exposion Chernobyl style. excerp from Chernobyl report found on wiki A second, more powerful explosion occurred about two or three seconds after the first; evidence indicates that the second explosion resulted from a nuclear excursion.[21] The nuclear excursion dispersed the core and effectively terminated that phase of the event. However, the graphite fire continued, greatly contributing to the spread of radioactive material and the contamination of outlying areas.[22] There were initially several hypotheses about the nature of the second explosion. One view was that "the second explosion was caused by the hydrogen which had been produced either by the overheated steam-zirconium reaction or by the reaction of red-hot graphite with steam that produce hydrogen and carbon monoxide." Another hypothesis posits that the second explosion was a thermal explosion of the reactor as a result of the uncontrollable escape of fast neutrons caused by the complete water loss in the reactor core.[23] A third hypothesis was that the explosion was caused, exceptionally, by steam. According to this version, the flow of steam and the steam pressure caused all the destruction following the ejection from the shaft of a substantial part of the graphite and fuel. The point I'm making is all the constituent parts are there and the process needed to begin the splitting of water is already underway. Edited March 14, 2011 by mushroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beretta Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 most reactors are cooled by sea water thats why most are next to the sea. all piping and waste management is in graded stainless steel to stop it degrading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 (edited) most reactors are cooled by sea water thats why most are next to the sea. all piping and waste management is in graded stainless steel to stop it degrading. Please everyone do some research before commenting on things or do what I did and go to uni http://www.examiner.com/international-headlines-in-national/using-sea-water-to-cool-japan-s-damaged-nuclear-reactors-a-last-resort Edited March 14, 2011 by mushroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 You cannot extract Hydrogen from water by superheating it. Water behaves very oddly when superheated but it doesn't give off Hydrogen! There has to be something else... a catalyst... to create... oh... a 'catalytic reaction' The catalyst would not be a 'light element' it would be a highly reactive metal, Gallium works... in laymans terms the hydrogen is produced by hot metal steel/ zirconium etc of the reactor (by hot I mean glowing red) contacting water (steam) water is as you know H2O when steam contacts red hot metal the O part of the water (oxygen) reacts and combines with the metal this leaves H2 and unfortunately hydrogen is very explosive between about 14 to 74ish % in air, bit simple but you should get the picture. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 in laymans terms the hydrogen is produced by hot metal steel/ zirconium etc of the reactor (by hot I mean glowing red) contacting water (steam) water is as you know H2O when steam contacts red hot metal the O part of the water (oxygen) reacts and combines with the metal this leaves H2 and unfortunately hydrogen is very explosive between about 14 to 74ish % in air, bit simple but you should get the picture. KW Thank you Keith... the voice of authority at last.... You will be wasted in retirement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno22rf Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Not really bothered if your diction was as you intended or not,Frenchieboy, but i agree 100% with your original post and in the way it was written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 it will certainly be a much more serious threat to the world than Chernoval (sp)! no it wont KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mushroom Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 no it wont KW Tell 'em why lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Ok, I don't normally get too irate about many things posted on this forum but I am getting a bit miffed about the way that some are turning this thread into an anti Japanese thread. I agree that this country of ours can't really afford to send millions of pounds in aid and that we should be equipping our troops better, treating our sick better and looking after our elderly as well. But yet we still continue to send millions to countries that are investing in their own space exploration programme (India). I would rather see foreign aid used to help Japan overcome some of its immediate difficulties and help them get back on their feet and to be fully self sufficient. How many jobs do you think will be lost in the UK directly or indirectly as a result on the disaster in Japan. What if the likes of Nissan, Toyota, etc lay off staff in the UK because their parent company decides to redirect funds from UK investment, production and UK wages to help rebuild their own country. Can we actually afford not to help Japan rebuild, what would the likely impact be to the UK if we didn't help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Mushroom... I'm happy to settle on a draw... 'we were both right' (to one degree or another) Otherwise it's pistols at dawn on the hill on the common! :yp: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 You wearing a jihab or a bally Definately a Bally (unless of course you like that kind a thing ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 That video to me is absolutely terrifying-water is a huge phobia of mine so to see what them poor souls went through aint easy.I cant believe how quick the road went from normal tarmac to a torrent of 10ft water and how cars then trucks were swept along like they were twigs.I know the death toll is going to be huge and i do hope they didnt suffer too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandspider Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 As for the British empire's legacy, anybody who compares it to Japan's is ignorant on an epic scale. Look at the English law legacy across the Commonwealth, not just the white bits but places like India and Hong Kong. the lasting message is of building lasting monuments, whether it's Indian railways or HK legal & business institutions. It's the apologists running down the Empire legacy who damage our ongoing relationships abroad. +1 to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdubya Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 watching the events out there I can only say that I would certainly put my hand in my pocket to help out what little way I could, I dont give a toss what they did in the war that was 65 years ago, they are a different people now, and I believe they would do the same for us if needed, in fact one cant help but admire their fortidude in dealing with this event, an event of magnitude that the disaster movie makers could not have drempt of, we would be a nation of hard done by stick the hands out by now. KW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 watching the events out there I can only say that I would certainly put my hand in my pocket to help out what little way I could, I dont give a toss what they did in the war that was 65 years ago, they are a different people now, and I believe they would do the same for us if needed, in fact one cant help but admire their fortidude in dealing with this event, an event of magnitude that the disaster movie makers could not have drempt of, we would be a nation of hard done by stick the hands out by now. KW What he said! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradders Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 watching the events out there I can only say that I would certainly put my hand in my pocket to help out what little way I could, I dont give a toss what they did in the war that was 65 years ago, they are a different people now, and I believe they would do the same for us if needed, in fact one cant help but admire their fortidude in dealing with this event, an event of magnitude that the disaster movie makers could not have drempt of, we would be a nation of hard done by stick the hands out by now. KW And if I am not mistaken the Japanese as a nation have not actually fired a single bullet in hostilities since the end of WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chard Posted March 14, 2011 Report Share Posted March 14, 2011 Please everyone do some research before commenting on things or do what I did and go to uni http://www.examiner.com/international-headlines-in-national/using-sea-water-to-cool-japan-s-damaged-nuclear-reactors-a-last-resort Why the smartarsed attitude? Perhaps you ought to do a bit of research yourself. Plenty of nuclear power stations are sea water cooled. I didn't go to uni to learn that either Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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