gsm1968 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Firstly if they are impossible to find in thousands of square miles of bush, then how much damage ate they doing exactly? You can't have it both ways, if there are plagues of them causing loads of damage they can't be impossible to find on the ground. Secondly, which ever way you dress it up, because of the huge technical difficulties of shooting from a moving platform you've articulated so well, cripples are inevitable. What would be your views on the ethics of shooting running deer from the back of a moving vehicle in UK? Blunderbuss, You're opinion is well respected on this forum and once again you have put forward a sensible argument. However, you have not suggested an alternative to the helicopter. It is inevitable that there will be some messy kills and posibly walking wounded. A better way would be ideal if it could be found. Until an alternative is found they have to be controlled as best possible. Poison is out, as it does not discriminate and pigs smell it out anyway. Shooting them by "walk and stalk" has a very low success rate as they hear and smell you from far away. Using a vehicle is just as useless. We only have to look on our door step at the Forest of Dean with full time pig controllers to see the damage and the low kill rate. They do cause a lot of damage and will decimate crops, from the centre of the field outwards to leave themselves cover. They also destroy natural fauna and deprive indigenous animals. Of course the killer is that they do it all at night!! I would wager that all the pigs in the video where found sleeping in groups in the fields, and woken by the helicopter and then shot. People should see this for what it is. Vermin control. It is in no way hunting!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) Blunderbuss, You're opinion is well respected on this forum and once again you have put forward a sensible argument. However, you have not suggested an alternative to the helicopter. It is inevitable that there will be some messy kills and posibly walking wounded. A better way would be ideal if it could be found. Until an alternative is found they have to be controlled as best possible. Poison is out, as it does not discriminate and pigs smell it out anyway. Shooting them by "walk and stalk" has a very low success rate as they hear and smell you from far away. Using a vehicle is just as useless. We only have to look on our door step at the Forest of Dean with full time pig controllers to see the damage and the low kill rate. They do cause a lot of damage and will decimate crops, from the centre of the field outwards to leave themselves cover. They also destroy natural fauna and deprive indigenous animals. Of course the killer is that they do it all at night!! I would wager that all the pigs in the video where found sleeping in groups in the fields, and woken by the helicopter and then shot. People should see this for what it is. Vermin control. It is in no way hunting!! I must have edited my post whilst you were typing this. I do reluctantly accept it may be a necessary though distasteful (IMHO) method. So I can see why an African landowner might NEED to do it. I don't however understand how anybody would WANT to do it, other than out of necessity, and that includes some on here who would jump all over someone bragging about taking long range shots at hares or culling Canada geese etc. Edited June 7, 2011 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsm1968 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 I must have edited my post whilst you were typing this. I do reluctantly accept it may be a necessary though distasteful (IMHO) method. So I can see why an African landowner might NEED to do it. I don't however understand how anybody would WANT to do it, other than out of necessity, and that includes some on here who would jump all over someone bragging about taking long range shots at hares or culling Canada geese etc. The man who finds a method that is cheaper and with a higher humane kill rate would work all over the world and retire rich. I look forward to the day some one does. ATB gsm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidney505 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Probs a c#%p suggestion but how effective would trancs be? A ground crew could then be used to dispatch the animals humanly and if someone can afford to ride round in a helicopter all day im sure he can afford tranc darts, this way he could get away with body shots. Cons - needs to be pretty close range I guess and tranc darts probs have a nasty price tag. Laugh if you will but I'm only throwing ideas into the mix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Probs a c#%p suggestion but how effective would trancs be? A ground crew could then be used to dispatch the animals humanly and if someone can afford to ride round in a helicopter all day im sure he can afford tranc darts, this way he could get away with body shots. Cons - needs to be pretty close range I guess and tranc darts probs have a nasty price tag. Laugh if you will but I'm only throwing ideas into the mix. you'd still need to fire the darts from a helicopter with the injuries, misses and therefore cost that would create Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gsm1968 Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 (edited) Probs a c#%p suggestion but how effective would trancs be? A ground crew could then be used to dispatch the animals humanly and if someone can afford to ride round in a helicopter all day im sure he can afford tranc darts, this way he could get away with body shots. Cons - needs to be pretty close range I guess and tranc darts probs have a nasty price tag. Laugh if you will but I'm only throwing ideas into the mix. You're right there. Tranquilizers were used for "Eco Hunting", ie: shoot a Rhino, have your photo taken and wake him up to wonder off. It all ended in tears. The tranquilizer gives a nasty "hangover". They quickly learn to go to any length to prevent getting darted. So if they didn't recover all the animals, and if any survived they would just alert the rest to danger well ahead of the helicopter. Edit: "The time delay on the darts effect would give them enough time to take cover and not be found" In reality you would probably get ZERO. The dart guns are effectively a very expensive single shot air gun, that takes ages to prepare and load. It would take a week to get a few. Those pigs running at that speed would need 50ft lead Keep trying, the solution is worth millions Edited June 7, 2011 by gsm1968 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpoonlouis Posted June 7, 2011 Report Share Posted June 7, 2011 Issue is complicated a little by the video having such an odd sound track, I think the posters were very happy to punt this as an exciting opportunity for hunters who simply like killing a lot of stuff. I am not in that category but I can see that a heli cull is the appropriate way to chase down so many animals in such a large space. The guy on the rifle actually looked quite composed and wasn't on some strange high adrenalin rush so i suspect he was probably a pest controller rather than a paying guest. Shame to see so much meat probably going to waste unless they had a big lifter to pick it all up which wouldn't really be economically viable. Quesetion was - Would I do it? If it was necessary to do it and I had the experience I would do it, it is no different to shooting cute bunnies, beautiful foxes or graceful pigeons. When two species clash for resources it is the stronger or better adapted that usually comes of best but is isn't any reason to turn a necessary task into a mindless slaughter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrispti Posted June 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Issue is complicated a little by the video having such an odd sound track, I think the posters were very happy to punt this as an exciting opportunity for hunters who simply like killing a lot of stuff. I am not in that category but I can see that a heli cull is the appropriate way to chase down so many animals in such a large space. The guy on the rifle actually looked quite composed and wasn't on some strange high adrenalin rush so i suspect he was probably a pest controller rather than a paying guest. Shame to see so much meat probably going to waste unless they had a big lifter to pick it all up which wouldn't really be economically viable. Quesetion was - Would I do it? If it was necessary to do it and I had the experience I would do it, it is no different to shooting cute bunnies, beautiful foxes or graceful pigeons. When two species clash for resources it is the stronger or better adapted that usually comes of best but is isn't any reason to turn a necessary task into a mindless slaughter. Wouldent you need to do it to gain the experience though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpoonlouis Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 I'd like to drive a formula 1 car and lap the TT course at warp factor 10 too but I don't think I'd try either without experiencing a few other things by way of preparation first! Hell I've only been shooting for 40 years so I am not exactly totally green but I think I might just need to develop a bit more skills with a rifle before attempting that job. But if you are superman and think you can hang out of the side of a helicopter and drill hogs at 250 meters then that's fine by me. Hope the pilot isn't on his first day on the job after flying his RC helicopter around the kitchen and seeing a Youtbe video and thinking " Hell that looks like fun I could do that too" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30-06hunter Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 any runners were fuelled by adrenaline.. Last time I was up in Scotland on the Sikas I had 2 runners, both well placed shots, one in particular, a decent sized hind, I desroyed her heart and pretty much all of the to part of one lung with my shot. She still managed to run 100 meters ito the trees before she dropped.... WITH NO HEART!!! i know just what you mean.. i go to Canada yearly for deer season ( white tail ) i hit a buck square in the hart and the same obliterated it! but he ran on pure adrenalin.. took us 30mins to find in the thick woodland. so it is of no surprise to me that this man shot a Hog and it kept running.. it was only him that kept putting rounds in for what i can only assume as making sure he hit it good. many of my friends in Canada ( Ontario ) hunt with shotgun slugs... they hit right on the kill zone it bolts they try and put another shot in just in case.. and anyone on here who has shot anything bigger than a fox will know. i have had deer and elk drop on the spot and others run. i feel it depends on his state before the shot. in my experience iv had a deer already charged from running towards my stand from being spooked by something, you shoot it and its already got that adrenalin and it bolts.. other times its been grazing on it just drops where it stands. so if a helicopter comes over the horizon id run, id get hit and probably keep going Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 The problem with the video is that it`s just such a strange and rare spectacle that most of us can`t relate to it at all so it`s easy to see why some people immediately start on the silly Yank theme. I have to admit this particular marksman/pilot combo did appear less than a perfect match, I have seen other footage where I was frankly very impressed with routine one shot kills. This one does give the impression that many wounded pigs are passed up in order to chase the fleeing packs. We mustn`t be too quick to judge though, I can`t believe they`d put up with the sheer costs involved if there were other alternatives. My guess is that anyone who has shot a half decent bag of wood pigeon has also pricked a fair few on the same day whilst secretly quite happy with himself of the kill/cartridge ratio. The reason we don`t jump on the high and mighty with decoying is that they fly away, sometimes not exhibiting any sign of having been hit whereas pigs from above are clearly seen to be taking hits, visibly and upsettingly slow down and of course being such big animals their demise is all the more graphic and gruelling to watch. If you think of the millions of fish that are lifted out in nets on a daily basis and dumped on deck to suffocate, then the inevitable wounding of this type of vermin control has to be seen in context. Poisoned rats die a painful death too, we just don`t seem to care much about them, very likely partly because we never get to see it in the first place. Would I like to experience it as a paying shooter? No, not because I wouldn`t enjoy the thrill, more because I simply don`t have the time or resources to ensure I can do the job and I certainly wouldn`t want to learn on the hoof so to speak. I would love to have a shooting holiday to one of these areas though with a guide and conventional shooting, I reckon if they`re that numerous then you can still have a traditional hunt with edible meat at the end of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 The problem with the video is that it`s just such a strange and rare spectacle that most of us can`t relate to it at all so it`s easy to see why some people immediately start on the silly Yank theme. I have to admit this particular marksman/pilot combo did appear less than a perfect match, I have seen other footage where I was frankly very impressed with routine one shot kills. This one does give the impression that many wounded pigs are passed up in order to chase the fleeing packs. We mustn`t be too quick to judge though, I can`t believe they`d put up with the sheer costs involved if there were other alternatives. My guess is that anyone who has shot a half decent bag of wood pigeon has also pricked a fair few on the same day whilst secretly quite happy with himself of the kill/cartridge ratio. The reason we don`t jump on the high and mighty with decoying is that they fly away, sometimes not exhibiting any sign of having been hit whereas pigs from above are clearly seen to be taking hits, visibly and upsettingly slow down and of course being such big animals their demise is all the more graphic and gruelling to watch. If you think of the millions of fish that are lifted out in nets on a daily basis and dumped on deck to suffocate, then the inevitable wounding of this type of vermin control has to be seen in context. Poisoned rats die a painful death too, we just don`t seem to care much about them, very likely partly because we never get to see it in the first place. Would I like to experience it as a paying shooter? No, not because I wouldn`t enjoy the thrill, more because I simply don`t have the time or resources to ensure I can do the job and I certainly wouldn`t want to learn on the hoof so to speak. I would love to have a shooting holiday to one of these areas though with a guide and conventional shooting, I reckon if they`re that numerous then you can still have a traditional hunt with edible meat at the end of it. A thoughtful and thought provoking post and some good points made. I'll admit that my own contributions on this have been a little emotive and judgmental. It's still not something I'd want to do, but I recognise it might be the best practical solution to the problem. Best left to skilled and experienced professionals though, I still think it would be wrong to allow someone with a fat wallet bit zero skill/experience to take part, if that happens? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) Doh!! Carp phone & wi fi connection - double post Edited June 8, 2011 by Blunderbuss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 A thoughtful and thought provoking post and some good points made. I'll admit that my own contributions on this have been a little emotive and judgmental. It's still not something I'd want to do, but I recognise it might be the best practical solution to the problem. Best left to skilled and experienced professionals though, I still think it would be wrong to allow someone with a fat wallet bit zero skill/experience to take part, if that happens? Bit like pheasant shooting on a large estate then Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpoonlouis Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Bit like pheasant shooting on a large estate then Quite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MM Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Would it make me a bad person if i said HELL YES!!! damn, i would love to try that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Bit like pheasant shooting on a large estate then Very good point... Also, to those bemoaning the wounding of an animal and not being able to ensure a clean kill every time... I trust you are able to to that when shooting pigeon or pheasant or grouse.... or do you not class them as animals? I take my hat off anyone who has been shooting any kind of bird for any length of time and has not had to neck a pricked bird... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Would it make me a bad person if i said HELL YES!!! damn, i would love to try that. I would be back to do it again in a flash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Bit like pheasant shooting on a large estate then Is this the 10 minute argument, or the full half hour? Arguably yes, and big commercial shoots as corporate entertainment isn't my thing either, but there is the subtle difference of a team of pickers up to ensure the wounded are dispatched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 (edited) I'd like to see you to get your dog to retrieve and then neck a hog though Vipa actually i'd pay money to see the effort p.s I actually thought the second film was miles away from the first, showed far better shooting and also how effective slugs are Edited June 8, 2011 by al4x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Very good point... Also, to those bemoaning the wounding of an animal and not being able to ensure a clean kill every time... I trust you are able to to that when shooting pigeon or pheasant or grouse.... or do you not class them as animals? I take my hat off anyone who has been shooting any kind of bird for any length of time and has not had to neck a pricked bird... But at least you get the opportunity to neck them, who's doing the follow up on the pigs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harpoonlouis Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Is this the 10 minute argument, or the full half hour? Arguably yes, and big commercial shoots as corporate entertainment isn't my thing either, but there is the subtle difference of a team of pickers up to ensure the wounded are dispatched. I think both types of shooting, corporate and this heli stuff risk the same thing, more wounded animals than should maybe tolerated, think we are all making a similar point. The heli guys appeared to reply on a few extra shoots to ensure rapid dispatch since a ground crew wouldn't be able to locate those animals for a heck of a long time. The dubious shots appeared to be those where they moved on quickly to chase up more animals rather than double tapping the first beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 Is this the 10 minute argument, or the full half hour? Arguably yes, and big commercial shoots as corporate entertainment isn't my thing either, but there is the subtle difference of a team of pickers up to ensure the wounded are dispatched. No arguments here, just debates Having been involved in this sort of culling, I fully agree with it hence putting that side forward, As mentioned before I couldnt see a lot of wounded animals in the video. I know of no shooting that give gaurenteed humane kill every time, I have tracked enough deer to know that I will not clean kill every one, and chased pricked crows and pigeons across fields, most I have retrieved but if I am honest there have been some I have never found doc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blunderbuss Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 No arguments here, just debates Having been involved in this sort of culling, I fully agree with it hence putting that side forward, As mentioned before I couldnt see a lot of wounded animals in the video. I know of no shooting that give gaurenteed humane kill every time, I have tracked enough deer to know that I will not clean kill every one, and chased pricked crows and pigeons across fields, most I have retrieved but if I am honest there have been some I have never found doc The argument bit was a Python quote and a poor attempt at humour. I know its a debate and a very enjoyable well mannered one it is too I'd still pay good money to watch you neck a wounded wild pig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docholiday Posted June 8, 2011 Report Share Posted June 8, 2011 The argument bit was a Python quote and a poor attempt at humour. I know its a debate and a very enjoyable well mannered one it is too I'd still pay good money to watch you neck a wounded wild pig Believe it or not you do, not neck but stick with large knife, The boys out in NZ do this as sport, couple of dogs to hold pig at bay then in they go with a knife, sling piggy on back, (must be wearing a Swann Dry for that bit and yomp a couple of miles back to camp, as pig may be several hundred pounds, I always thought them a little mad, but thats Kiwis for you, no guts no glory. ie Barking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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