22lr range for subsonics and zeroing range differs by so much?

[TaxiDriver]

Apologies for another question thats probably been done but didn't want to highjack someone elses' topic.

 

As I understand it 22lr rounds have a range of a mile & half according to manufacturers warning on the box. (I understand there maybe some safety margin built into that warning) Both the Winchester Subs and CCI Stingers have same warning.

 

When I started with the 22lr the guy at my RFD suggested to zero at 100yrds, though general consensus of advice on here was that 100yrds was to much for the 22lr and consequently I should zero at anywhere between 60 - 75yrds ?

 

What I find disappointing is that the useable range seems disproportionately low compared to the generally accepted 'lethal at upto 1.5 miles'

 

Maybe I should be kicking meself I didn't go for .17hmr :unsure:

[V8 90]

If you download the BRC form www.hawkeoptics.com you will see the range of your.22lr ! Also you will be able to work out the best range for you to zero depending upon your shooting

 

As for the Hmr - they're awesome - I sold my .22lr as I found it just sat in my Cabinet favouring my Hmr all the time But I also have an FAC .20 Daystate that I can use where noise would be an issue BUT it's not as quiet as a .22lr with a Mod however they all have their uses - You could always put in a variation for 1

 

Hope this helps

[TaxiDriver]

I cannot remember, but I think I was advised against putting in for .17hmr by the FEO on my home visit as it was my first FAC Application and was unlikely to be granted, maybe not his decision to make, but at the time I didn't really know any better.

 

I've downloaded Hawkes Chairgun programme but being a thickhead haven't a clue how to use it and ****nows I've tried.

[C00KIE]

I was advised the same on my first application that a .17 would not be granted so i went for a .22.

Never regreted the decision once.

My mate applied for a .17 first off and was granted immediately and that was his first one. Think it`s all changing, will it seems to be in my area, whether its for the better i`m unsure.

 

"Horse`s for courses" as they say, but don't rely on the maximum distance for the kill shot, there is no substitute for fieldcraft and technique.

[wymberley]

First point, which also takes care of the 3rd, somewhere between 8 and 900 yards.

 

Second point, 100 yards is arguably too far. The best answer is zero at the range at which you shoot most of whatever it you're shooting. For me, this is 70 yards and to be honest, I wouldn't alter it now no matter what happened as after all these years I know where I'm at. Once you've got the hang of a 22LR trajectory, you can shoot anything else with ease.

 

Final point, it's usual to accept the LR's normal range coverage as 30 to 100 yards (both figures ish) for the quarry species for which the calibre and those distances are deemed suitable. If you want to operate outside (ie, further) those parameters for the same quarry, then yes, perhaps you bought the wrong rifle.

 

It will be realised that the foregoing relates to sub sonic ammo which is the LR's forte. IMHO, if you were thinking of using anything else, then definitely a different calibre is a better option.

[kent]

Zero ranges are nothing to do with what range you shoot the gun at most and only a limited ammount to do with total range.

To explain

Any firearm has two point were line of sight cross, effectively you have two zero ranges. In say a HMR this is normally 40 yds and 100 yds say. Between 40 and one hundred your point of impact will be higher than your point of aim with a peak trajectory ie. highest point occuring at around 80 yds. Between 80-100 the bullet drops back down to your primary 100 yds zero.

Now if you want to select a 150 yds zero for the same gun you can and still you will have two zeros - however the first will be closer than 40 yds and at the peak trajectory (which will no longer be the same range) will be far higher. this makes the gun harder to shoot at any ranges between the first and second points were the bullet crosses the line of sight (line of aim if you wish)effectively it is more of a loop and between the two zeros it will become too high for most uses a hmr say is put to "small targets"

All bullets drop and start to fall the instant they leave the muzzle speed can only mean the bullet travels further in a given time so gravity has less time to act.

The warning on the packet mearly means if your dumb enough to shoot upwards at an angle of say 33 degrees to the horizon the bullet will go a lot further than you think and still contain a fair amount of energy as it falls. fired level off a bipod prone no gun will go 1.5 miles before it lands indeed 500 yds would be about the max - However this ignoors the fact that the bullet may well bounce or ricochet and hence travel much further depending on departure angle following that impact or skim with terra firma at the mentioned 500yds if you like.

Hope this helps explain. Now can anyone explain why FEO's are so uneducated about balistics ?

Edited June 30, 2011 by kent

[wymberley]

Zero ranges are nothing to do with what range you shoot the gun at most and only a limited ammount to do with total range.

To explain

Any firearm has two point were line of sight cross, effectively you have two zero ranges. In say a HMR this is normally 40 yds and 100 yds say. Between 40 and one hundred your point of impact will be higher than your point of aim with a peak trajectory ie. highest point occuring at around 80 yds. Between 80-100 the bullet drops back down to your primary 100 yds zero.

Now if you want to select a 150 yds zero for the same gun you can and still you will have two zeros - however the first will be closer than 40 yds and at the peak trajectory (which will no longer be the same range) will be far higher. this makes the gun harder to shoot at any ranges between the first and second points were the bullet crosses the line of sight (line of aim if you wish)effectively it is more of a loop and between the two zeros it will become too high for most uses a hmr say is put to "small targets"

All bullets drop and start to fall the instant they leave the muzzle speed can only mean the bullet travels further in a given time so gravity has less time to act.

The warning on the packet mearly means if your dumb enough to shoot upwards at an angle of say 33 degrees to the horizon the bullet will go a lot further than you think and still contain a fair amount of energy as it falls. fired level off a bipod prone no gun will go 1.5 miles before it lands indeed 500 yds would be about the max - However this ignoors the fact that the bullet may well bounce or ricochet and hence travel much further depending on departure angle following that impact or skim with terra firma at the mentioned 500yds if you like.

Hope this helps explain. Now can anyone explain why FEO's are so uneducated about balistics ?

 

Yep, they've been listening to the shooters and are totally confused.

 

Taxi Driver, to revert to your LR thread, no matter at what distance you decide to zero, you WILL encouter the trajectory curve problem to a greater or lesser degree. Once you've mastered it, you're a shooter.

[Billy.]

The PBR of a .22LR is about 65 yards. This will give you an optimal arc for rabbiting.

[TaxiDriver]

PBR ?

[kent]

PBR ?

 

Point blank range, best use of trajectory arc but it aint nessasarilly so. Depends on scope to bore velocity of ammo and not least how high your willing to push up that peak trajectory. nearly every .22 sub user uses a 50 ys zero your shot should not go more than around 1/2" high at peak trajectory. In practice you never need to intentially hold high or low until your over 55 yds then its just progressive hold over

[kent]

Yep, they've been listening to the shooters and are totally confused.

 

Taxi Driver, to revert to your LR thread, no matter at what distance you decide to zero, you WILL encouter the trajectory curve problem to a greater or lesser degree. Once you've mastered it, you're a shooter.

 

Do you find that too confusing?

[hyflier]

I for one am enjoying this topic, an intelligent question and some really informative answers. I shoot .22 and .17 but if I use the .17 for too long I soon get out of "hold over" practice with the .22

[Billy.]

PBR ?

 

As Kent quite nicely explained

 

It's down to personal preference really. I'd say that 65 yards on most subsonic LR ammo will give you 'point and shoot' up to 85 75 yards, which is more than enough. From 85 75 yards, you just aim a little higher.

 

PBR for an HMR is about 115 yards

Edited July 1, 2011 by Billy.

[kent]

As Kent quite nicely explained

 

It's down to personal preference really. I'd say that 65 yards on most subsonic LR ammo will give you 'point and shoot' up to 85 yards, which is more than enough. From 85 yards, you just aim a little higher.

 

PBR for an HMR is about 115 yards

 

I think your set up must be a bit different to most some how. 65 to 85 is certainly going to need some hold over on a rabbit brain shot on every subsonic .22 i have encoutered. I personally tried 60 yds zero for a while which is ok for chest shooting but i kept on missing over the top on rabbits at peak trajectory range

[Billy.]

I think your set up must be a bit different to most some how. 65 to 85 is certainly going to need some hold over on a rabbit brain shot on every subsonic .22 i have encoutered. I personally tried 60 yds zero for a while which is ok for chest shooting but i kept on missing over the top on rabbits at peak trajectory range

 

I shoot them in the chest.

[wymberley]

I shoot them in the chest.

Are you sure they're rabbits?

Must admit, do have to agree with Kent here :o that's about 21/2", some chest, some rabbit!

[Billy.]

Are you sure they're rabbits?

Must admit, do have to agree with Kent here :o that's about 21/2", some chest, some rabbit!

 

Not trying to sound like a chart hugger, but looking at the trajectory chart of a Winnie 40grn sub, zeroed at 60 yards, the bullet doesn't even cross the -1" line until 71 Yards. (Apart from at 5 yards) Peaking at +0.7"

 

So in the right conditions from 5 - 70 yards the bullet is arcing under 1.7"

Edited July 1, 2011 by Billy.

[wymberley]

Not trying to sound like a chart hugger, but looking at the trajectory chart of a Winnie 40grn sub, zeroed at 60 yards, the bullet doesn't even cross the -1" line until 71 Yards. (Apart from at 5 yards) Peaking at +0.7"

 

So in the right conditions from 5 - 70 yards the bullet is arcing under 1.7"

Billy, Quite agree, but come on, stop squirming, have another look at your chart and what does it say about 65 and 85 which is what you said in the first place?

[Billy.]

Billy, Quite agree, but come on, stop squirming, have another look at your chart and what does it say about 65 and 85 which is what you said in the first place?

 

You are quite right. I retract my 85 yard statement and reduce my estimate to 75

[TaxiDriver]

Taxi Driver, to revert to your LR thread, no matter at what distance you decide to zero, you WILL encouter the trajectory curve problem to a greater or lesser degree. Once you've mastered it, you're a shooter.

 

Well then, I guess I'm destined to remain a 'plinker' rather than a 'Shooter'

 

I don't have the capacity/ability or the patience to get to technical about it all,(heavens I can't even use chairgun and god knows I've tried) and as for hold over/under, sheesh !! I use Hawke scopes with the 6A reticule and I suppose in an ideal situation I'd be able to know what each dot/gradient above and below the centre increased/decreased my POI.

 

I'll stick to range I know I can shoot accurately, just a shame I bought a 22lr to do summat I can do with air rifle.

 

Thank you all for the input chaps.

[Billy.]

just a shame I bought a 22lr to do summat I can do with air rifle.

 

 

Get out.

Edited July 1, 2011 by Billy.

[al4x]

swap it at some point for an HMR you'll be mighty impressed, all this playing with loopy trajectories is for people that like to talk about it more than shoot

[TaxiDriver]

Get out.

?? Get what out.

[Billy.]

?? Get what out.

 

It's a saying...

 

Usually said whilst pointing at a door

 

[kent]

I shoot them in the chest.

 

At 85 yds your - 2 1/2" from a 65 yds zero with subs and a 1.5" bore to scope height. the peak trajectory occurs at 40yds and is 1.07" over its not for every one, let me educate you to a 50 yds zero if you may.

 

5yds -1"

10yds -0.57"

15yds -0.22"

20yds 0.05" approx first point the trajectory arc crosses line of sight

25yds 0.25"

30yds 0.36"

35yds 0.4" peak trajectory above trajectory curve

40yds 0.35"

45yds 0.22"

50yds zero the bullet is dropping back through the line of sight here,the even central spacing of the peak at 40yds helps clarify

55yds - 0.3"

60yds - 0.69

65yds - 1.17"

70yds - 1.74"

75yds - 2.39"

80yds - 3.14"

85yds - 3.98"

90yds - 4.91"

100 yds -7.07"

 

As you can see its nil effective hold for head shooting from 10yds to almost 60yds, after that you can chest shoot if you wish to 70 yds and only loose 10yds advantage to the higher 65yds zero which is -1.7 at 80yds and - 2.45" at 85yds so you still need to hold over the spine to land in the chest. Either way you will struggle to get a point and squirt .22 subsonic rig capable to 85 yds.

Like i say i used to use a 60 yds zero myself believing it gave me a slight edge out lamping but did quite a bit of ear piercing on the bunnies about 40yds.