sixhills 69 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 I have been thinking of have my barrel shortend and re-threaded and i have had different conversations with different RFD's about doing the work and what different storys you get. Firstly after a recommendation i telephone a company in Telford Nice chap asked what caliber what i shoot ect ect and informed me that i would not see any significant difference in loss of volicity gave me a price and said just give him a weeks notice as they are doing some large barrel projects and he will fit me in on the day great. Then i phoned a local RFD who told me he could do the work at the shop and that would be £45 (Great closer to home and good Price) he then mentioned courier costs and that would be £120 "WHAT" :o then he said he would loss his RFD if he did not send it to Birmigham to be PROOFED i asked why and he said its the law. I then phoned my firearms departent who had no clue. what a suprise I then Phone BASC who gave me the phone number for the Proofing house and said speak to them. I phoned them and asked and still was not convinced that it is "Law" to have the barrel re proofed. So i phoned a few more RFD's and had a number of different quotes and add on's ect. Can any one please tell me what is the truth what is right what is wrong will the RFD loose his licence or is it all a Con. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 You can have the barrel shortened,and screwcut, and NOT have it proofed,(it's NOT law)it only needs proofing if you sell it on. If the barrel has already been screw cut and has proof marks on it,then I believe it doesn't have to be re-proofed. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaxiDriver Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Someone else brought up something similar a little while ago. IIRC it had something to do with being illegal to sell a gun that wasn't proofed, but it wasn't a legal requirement to have it proofed as a matter of course, BUT you might have trouble if you subsequently sold the gun on in the future ?? Don't Quote Me though as Im only going from vague recolection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 TD, that's exactly how I understand it, it's legal to own a rifle that's been shortened,screwcut without proof,BUT must be proofed IF sold on. As I said if it already has been proofed,then shortened and/or screw cut,then NO re-proof is necessary. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 My barrel was screw cut when i purchased it how can i tell there is a mark on my barrel with 02 stamped next to it ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 (edited) Sixhills, what make is your rifle? if it's a CZ then the marks (02) at the receiver end will be the year of manufacture, proof marks are normally at the end of the barrel with a symbol and some lettering. Alan Edited July 7, 2011 by willy1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 yes it's a CZ 527 nothing on the end of the barrel just checked cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 You are not obliged to re-proof a shortened barrel.While it is an offence to sell a gun with no proof,or a gun which is out of proof,it is not an offence to pass on said gun as 'given'.If you want to resell your chopped gun at some time,simply chop off the screw cut and re-crown it.This brings the gun back into proof. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 You are not obliged to re-proof a shortened barrel.While it is an offence to sell a gun with no proof,or a gun which is out of proof,it is not an offence to pass on said gun as 'given'.If you want to resell your chopped gun at some time,simply chop off the screw cut and re-crown it.This brings the gun back into proof. Just goes to show what screwed up gun laws we have in this country Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Just goes to show what screwed up gun laws we have in this country Alan Not Wrong i have been saying this for some time the lady at the proofing house said "its to check if the barrel is safe" i Replied "But cuting it back 5inch adds an extra 4mm around the wall of the rifling which would surley make it safer" she replied "i just answer the phone" Great Thanks Guys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampire Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Someone else brought up something similar a little while ago. IIRC it had something to do with being illegal to sell a gun that wasn't proofed, but it wasn't a legal requirement to have it proofed as a matter of course, BUT you might have trouble if you subsequently sold the gun on in the future ?? Don't Quote Me though as Im only going from vague recolection. Think the similar post was mine,going on about mods/cutting Just took my .223 in to be shortened/crowned and cut for £55 inc and the rfd says that a case has just gone through court where the judge ruled it did not need to be proofed and was just profitering,if you know law then you will know that it is a case of dont tell me the law 'show me the case',so if anyone can find out the case...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Not Wrong i have been saying this for some time the lady at the proofing house said "its to check if the barrel is safe" i Replied "But cuting it back 5inch adds an extra 4mm around the wall of the rifling which would surley make it safer" she replied "i just answer the phone" Great Thanks Guys Shortening does not require re proof, it's the removal of metal from the wall of the barrel during threading that the Proof House stipulate requires re proof. The whole crux of the argument as to weather a threaded barrel needs to be submitted for proof hinges round the words "unduly reduced in Substance or Strength" and this very matter would need to be tested in court for a definitive answer. Even that would not stop the argument though because every barrel thickness and every thread size would need a test case of its own. It is however accepted that the law makes it an offence to sell or exchange a rifle that has been screw cut and not proofed. So the choice is down to the owner. Have it proofed when you have the threading done or leave it till you dispose of the rifle. Both courses of action are legal, the choice is yours. Would I buy an out of proof rifle............NO. Would those that say it does not need proofing buy one............I very much doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Think the similar post was mine,going on about mods/cutting Just took my .223 in to be shortened/crowned and cut for £55 inc and the rfd says that a case has just gone through court where the judge ruled it did not need to be proofed and was just profitering,if you know law then you will know that it is a case of dont tell me the law 'show me the case',so if anyone can find out the case...... I presume he was refering to this....http://jacksonrifles.com/zz-silencers/files/R-v-Beatham_evidence.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 This goes round and round. No RFD will lose his ticket for not getting a rifle proofed, it is NOT a legal requirement. Neither is it a legal requirement to buy or sell a cut and threaded rifle without a proof. Over about the last 2.5 years I bought a .22WMR which had obviously been cut and threaded from a RFD with NO PROOF. About 18 months ago I sold this same rifle to a different RFD still with NO PROOF. Shortly after that I bought another WMR from a third RFD who cut and threaded it for me and sold it to me with NO PROOF. So, how does that work then if this is illegal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Shortening does not require re proof, it's the removal of metal from the wall of the barrel during threading that the Proof House stipulate requires re proof. Have it proofed when you have the threading done or leave it till you dispose of the rifle. Both courses of action are legal, the choice is yours. Or,like I said,simply cut off the thread and re-crown,which brings the gun back into proof.Cheaper than submitting a gun to proof. Incidentally,I own a shotgun which has never been 'proved',but unproved is not the same as out of proof.It is not an offence to own this,only to 'sell' it.I can however,give it away quite legally to another SGC holder.Don't see why the law should be different regarding rifles,but it may be;our firearms laws are anything but consistent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted July 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 Or,like I said,simply cut off the thread and re-crown,which brings the gun back into proof.Cheaper than submitting a gun to proof. Incidentally,I own a shotgun which has never been 'proved',but unproved is not the same as out of proof.It is not an offence to own this,only to 'sell' it.I can however,give it away quite legally to another SGC holder.Don't see why the law should be different regarding rifles,but it may be;our firearms laws are anything but consistent. Again the laws are to old and out of date no police forces have the same rules its time another system was brought in to look and making in not just easyer for the police but the forms for varations ect and the time licenses spend in the station is a laugh could do with some money going into that instead of all this help bailing out other countrys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 7, 2011 Report Share Posted July 7, 2011 This goes round and round. No RFD will lose his ticket for not getting a rifle proofed, it is NOT a legal requirement. Neither is it a legal requirement to buy or sell a cut and threaded rifle without a proof. Over about the last 2.5 years I bought a .22WMR which had obviously been cut and threaded from a RFD with NO PROOF. About 18 months ago I sold this same rifle to a different RFD still with NO PROOF. Shortly after that I bought another WMR from a third RFD who cut and threaded it for me and sold it to me with NO PROOF. So, how does that work then if this is illegal? The problem is though that the "Proof House" quite clearly state that "adapting a rifle barrel to accept a sound moderator" requires re proofing. They make the rules and it would be a foolish retailer who ignores their dictat and ends up in court for the sake of a few quid in proof charges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 (edited) The problem is though that the "Proof House" quite clearly state that "adapting a rifle barrel to accept a sound moderator" requires re proofing. They make the rules and it would be a foolish retailer who ignores their dictat and ends up in court for the sake of a few quid in proof charges. This has been debated at length historically and the Government makes the LAW in this country, (often following European Law of course). Proof Houses do not make the law, they make certain rules in line with their powers, that does not go as far as making the law, nobody in this country makes the law except the Government! The Proof houses make rules, and nobody can be taken to court for ignoring their rules unless they have been embodied in statute! Many RFD will buy and sell guns that have been cut/threaded without proof. Of the ones who don't few these days suggest it is because of the law, most suggest it is down to their Business Insurance! Edited July 8, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy1 Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Many RFD will buy and sell guns that have been cut/threaded without proof. Few these days suggest it is because of the law, most suggest it is down to their Business Insurance! Totally agree, i've bought many guns,both private and from dealers that have been screwcut and/or shortened without proof. Alan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 The problem is though that the "Proof House" quite clearly state that "adapting a rifle barrel to accept a sound moderator" requires re proofing. They make the rules and it would be a foolish retailer who ignores their dictat and ends up in court for the sake of a few quid in proof charges. the side issue is that it is the proof houses business so the more they proof the better, this makes an interesting read on the subject, certainly screwcutting on its own seems fine. That said all mine have been done but not entirely out of choice. http://jacksonrifles.com/zz-silencers/ukproof.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 This has been debated at length historically and the Government makes the LAW in this country, (often following European Law of course). Proof Houses do not make the law, they make certain rules in line with their powers, that does not go as far as making the law, nobody in this country makes the law except the Government! The Proof houses make rules, and nobody can be taken to court for ignoring their rules unless they have been embodied in statute! Many RFD will buy and sell guns that have been cut/threaded without proof. Of the ones who don't few these days suggest it is because of the law, most suggest it is down to their Business Insurance! I did not say the proof house make the law, I clearly stated that the proof house make up the rules. The Law regarding proof is contained in the proof act and like all laws interpretation is what makes lawyers rich !!. It will take a court case to set a president on weather or not screw cutting needs re proof. As the law, ie the proof act, gives these powers to the proof house they have to some degree the upper hand and as their sole remit is public safety I can't see the point in fighting them particularly as the cost of re proof is so small. It must be remembered that Jackson Rifles had a vested interest in obtaining and publishing a councils opinion on the subject of moderator proof requirements and that opinion is just that, their opinion. All interesting stuff and I must add that my HMR and .204 have not been proofed after threading. I will probably get out the hack saw when the time comes to sell them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted July 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Shortening does not require re proof, it's the removal of metal from the wall of the barrel during threading that the Proof House stipulate requires re proof. The whole crux of the argument as to weather a threaded barrel needs to be submitted for proof hinges round the words "unduly reduced in Substance or Strength" and this very matter would need to be tested in court for a definitive answer. Even that would not stop the argument though because every barrel thickness and every thread size would need a test case of its own. It is however accepted that the law makes it an offence to sell or exchange a rifle that has been screw cut and not proofed. So the choice is down to the owner. Have it proofed when you have the threading done or leave it till you dispose of the rifle. Both courses of action are legal, the choice is yours. Would I buy an out of proof rifle............NO. Would those that say it does not need proofing buy one............I very much doubt it. All three of my CZ's are screw cut Two were purchased Brand New and none have proof markings on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vampire Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 Think the similar post was mine,going on about mods/cutting Just took my .223 in to be shortened/crowned and cut for £55 inc and the rfd says that a case has just gone through court where the judge ruled it did not need to be proofed and was just profitering,if you know law then you will know that it is a case of dont tell me the law 'show me the case',so if anyone can find out the case...... I presume he was refering to this....http://jacksonrifles.com/zz-silencers/files/R-v-Beatham_evidence.pdf Thats the case i was on about,after reading it.... some facts jump out,1836 act :o ,a rifle barrell is 180 times stronger than it needs to be,where as a 4-5 safety factor is the engineering industry norm. That engineer fairly well ripped the proof house a new #### Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 The whole crux of the argument as to weather a threaded barrel needs to be submitted for proof hinges round the words "unduly reduced in Substance or Strength" and this very matter would need to be tested in court for a definitive answer. Even that would not stop the argument though because every barrel thickness and every thread size would need a test case of its own. It is however accepted that the law makes it an offence to sell or exchange a rifle that has been screw cut and not proofed. Your sentence "It is however accepted that the law makes it an offence to sell or exchange a rifle that has been screw cut and not proofed." is very interesting. Do you have any facts or evidence to back this up as it would seem very important if this is the case. I asked this question a while back....... " if a screwcut barrel is shortened and has the same thread put back on, where is the weakening of the metal? or as you put it "unduly reduced in Substance or Strength" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted July 8, 2011 Report Share Posted July 8, 2011 This is daft and goes round and round, we all know Jackson Rifles view (which I and many RFD share), and we all know they have a vested interest, so what! Lets cut the bull and ask the question, who has been hauled up, who has set a precident, who is in prison, and frankly who cares. Many RFD routinely buy and sell rifles that have been cut and threaded WITHOUT ANY PROOF MARKS! FACT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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