henry d Posted August 29, 2011 Report Share Posted August 29, 2011 Not any easy thing, to legislate to avoid poisoning birds with lead. Facts are that due to some unscrupulous "Guide/s" feeding a field for foreign geese shooters, some geese who fed in the field when it wasn`t being shot also picked up grit for their gizzards containing lead shot and died as a result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted August 30, 2011 Report Share Posted August 30, 2011 try this one if you put lead shot steel shot etc etc on mud flats sand below high tide in piles of lets say a pound weight go back two days later and dig the same spots you will find the lead has sunk down deeper so how the heck does ducks etc eat it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) Quote Over and above, just where is the evidence of all the deaths/poisoning of all the Waterfowl and people, yes the law is a compromise, a law to appease the people who have no understanding of shooting and given a chance would ban it ALL. Run back a year or so and you will see that I posted loads links of research papers into the effect of lead shot in posioning waterfowl. If in doubt do the research yourself. Buy some mallard , keep on a pond and put a small amount of lead shot in the pond and see how many are left alive after 6 months. Quote Look, this is wondering a bit, and frankly my view is clear, it is an ill considered law, ................. anyway Why anything that reduces posioning in waterfowl and increases the number of wildfowl available for shooting cant be a bad thing from a wildfowlers point of view. Quote NO LAW should be enacted for ease of enforcement Wha rubbish. If you cant enforce a law what is the point of having the law. Quote Regardless of whether there is some merit in the poisoning argument, that is NOT the way to construct any law! How can you take that view. In any field shooting sports the quarry must always come first and our shooting interests second. Without a quarry species we have no sport. When there is a good healthy quarry population then there is a surpless for the hunter to harvest. As for shot birds crossing the boarder differnet countries within the UK have different laws , so without dropping devolution there is not much anyone can do about . But in reality I doubt if many shot wildfowl cross the boarder. Scarecrow its not that simple as to where the lead shot ends up. There was a case a few years ago where a number of whooper swans died by picking up lead shot that had been fired some distant away and the tide had carried it along the coast depositing it in a shingle\shell bar. And the swans were picking it up off the bar. But you are right as a whole most will sink out of sight in the soft mud. Perhaps the greatest risk of posioning cones from flight ponds where large numbers of shot are fired in a small area or lakes with hard bottoms where the lead does not sink in. There was a case in Scotland a few years ago where a loch had been shot over for years with no problems and then during a drought the water level fell several feet , bringing the lead shot within reach of greylags and several hundred died. But the time for all the arguments over lead and non toxic shot should be well past by now. If you were a coarse fisherman and wanted to try your hand at trout fishing in a stocked fishery you know you would have to buy yourself a fly rod. So whats the difference if you are a pigeon\game shooter and you want to shoot wildfowl. Go out and buy yourself the gun to the job with non toxic shot. Edited August 31, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Quote “Over and above, just where is the evidence of all the deaths/poisoning of all the Waterfowl and people, yes the law is a compromise, a law to appease the people who have no understanding of shooting and given a chance would ban it ALL. “ Run back a year or so and you will see that I posted loads links of research papers into the effect of lead shot in posioning waterfowl. If in doubt do the research yourself. Buy some mallard , keep on a pond and put a small amount of lead shot in the pond and see how many are left alive after 6 months. Quote “Look, this is wondering a bit, and frankly my view is clear, it is an ill considered law, ................. anyway “ Why anything that reduces posioning in waterfowl and increases the number of wildfowl available for shooting cant be a bad thing from a wildfowlers point of view. Quote “NO LAW should be enacted for ease of enforcement” Wha rubbish. If you cant enforce a law what is the point of having the law.” Quote “Regardless of whether there is some merit in the poisoning argument, that is NOT the way to construct any law!” How can you take that view. In any field shooting sports the quarry must always come first and our shooting interests second. Without a quarry species we have no sport. When there is a good healthy quarry population then there is a surpless for the hunter to harvest. As for shot birds crossing the boarder differnet countries within the UK have different laws , so without dropping devolution there is not much anyone can do about . But in reality I doubt if many shot wildfowl cross the boarder. Scarecrow its not that simple as to where the lead shot ends up. There was a case a few years ago where a number of whooper swans died by picking up lead shot that had been fired some distant away and the tide had carried it along the coast depositing it in a shingle\shell bar. And the swans were picking it up off the bar. But you are right as a whole most will sink out of sight in the soft mud. Perhaps the greatest risk of posioning cones from flight ponds where large numbers of shot are fired in a small area or lakes with hard bottoms where the lead does not sink in. There was a case in Scotland a few years ago where a loch had been shot over for years with no problems and then during a drought the water level fell several feet , bringing the lead shot within reach of greylags and several hundred died. But the time for all the arguments over lead and non toxic shot should be well past by now. If you were a coarse fisherman and wanted to try your hand at trout fishing in a stocked fishery you know you would have to buy yourself a fly rod. So whats the difference if you are a pigeon\game shooter and you want to shoot wildfowl. Go out and buy yourself the gun to the job with non toxic shot. Ha Ha Ha, another wildfowler short of things to shoot! Even you have suggested the law is a compromise in post 22, and also suggest here much lead is lost in mud etc! And I accept lead is not the best thing in the world. But if you seriously believe laws should be written for ease of enforcement, and not to address an issue I suspect you have eaten too much lead already! Lead is poisonous and an issue in England/Wales for wildfowl but not in the same way in Scotland. Clay shooters fire over livestock and crops every weekend in England, poisoning the ground and every imaginable foodcrop/milk/meat product, where is the ban! The law is ill considered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Clay shooters fire over livestock and crops every weekend in England, poisoning the ground and every imaginable foodcrop/milk/meat product, where is the ban! Make no mistake, it's on its way Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 One thing I am not short of is things to shoot with 7,000 acres of pigeon shooting , 10,000 acres of marsh scattered across the county ( one marsh holds in excess of 90,000 pink footed geese and a private shoot I have holds 3-10,000 most of the winter in adddition of many thousands of wigeon , teal and mallard. Plus a small pheasant shoot and a 100 acre lake so as i shoot 4-5 days a week between September and April though always with moderate bags and if the fancy takes me i can normaly find a bird or two to shoot at. Almost all laws are a compromise of differing views , but what is important is that they are if neccessary they need to be enforceable if needed. After all whats the point in a law otherwise. As for banning lead for clay shoots and so on ... watch this space its comming sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Make no mistake, it's on its way That's as maybe, but currently it highlights the inconsistency of this Health/poisoning argument for lead/wildfowl/water/whatever, ill considered law. PS whats the wildfowling like your way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 One thing I am not short of is things to shoot with 7,000 acres of pigeon shooting , 10,000 acres of marsh scattered across the county ( one marsh holds in excess of 90,000 pink footed geese and a private shoot I have holds 3-10,000 most of the winter in adddition of many thousands of wigeon , teal and mallard. Plus a small pheasant shoot and a 100 acre lake so as i shoot 4-5 days a week between September and April though always with moderate bags and if the fancy takes me i can normaly find a bird or two to shoot at. Almost all laws are a compromise of differing views , but what is important is that they are if neccessary they need to be enforceable if needed. After all whats the point in a law otherwise. As for banning lead for clay shoots and so on ... watch this space its comming sooner or later. We have had some fun, but the law is DAFT, ill considered, inconsistant with any health argument wildlife or human, different in parts of the UK, doesn't transfer to livestock or crops and does not include lead in single projectiles, seems a bit stupid really, especially as almost all the Vermin Canadas round here I shoot with a rifle anyway! ATB! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest cookoff013 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 funny because non-toxic still is toxic it's just not lead. Silly really ! thats seriously funny, i`ve known that for years ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Buy some mallard , keep on a pond and put a small amount of lead shot in the pond and see how many are left alive after 6 months. well the 500 on the pond on our shoot seem to multiply and I've never heard of one showing lead poisoning. Thats a pond that has probably been shot for well over a century and still is, Non toxic is used when we put the ducks off but then the guns line round each side of the lake for different pheasant drives when lead is used so its still entering the pond. Indeed the same happens on an awful lot of inland release ponds. Its all bull poop the claims that poisoning has stopped since the ban and shows what rubbish it is as Inland nothing has changed in most places and though its naughty most ducks are still shot with lead if you believe the research Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 here is a thought has anyone ever cut the stomach open of a duck or goose and found lead shot or any other shot that had been swallowed i havent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alycidon Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 He can shoot them in season (1st Sept - 31st Jan) but he MUST use non-toxic shot. Canada Geese can be shot out of season as long as he follows the stipulations set down in the OGL, but he must still use non-toxic shot. Agreed. A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) On a different slant, and sorry to highjack BLACK-GUN, but why am I not allowed to use my FAC 11 shot semi (even if I only load 2/3 shells)? Prohibited Methods A number of methods of killing or taking wild birds are prohibited. These include gin, spring, leg and pole traps, snares, nets, electrical scaring devices, poisonous substances, bows or crossbows, explosives (other than firearm ammunition), artificial light, mirror or dazzling devices, devices for illuminating a target or sighting device for night shooting, automatic or semi-automatic weapon (unless it is incapable of holding more than 2 rounds in the magazine), or shotgun with an internal diameter at muzzle more than 1 3/4 inches. The use of sound recordings and decoys of live birds tethered, blinded or maimed is illegal. It is also an offence to cause or permit such methods to be used. It is an offence to use any mechanically propelled vehicle - including boats - in immediate pursuit of a wild bird to kill or take it. Or are they talking a semi-automatic rifle for example? Edited August 31, 2011 by huffhuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 because its held on your fac it dose not matter if you only load three shells you would still be breaking the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Yep you can only shoot birds on the general license. Why I only have a 3 shot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
super sharp shooter Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 (edited) No fac shotgun for you then it's the law Edited August 31, 2011 by super sharp shooter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 because its held on your fac it dose not matter if you only load three shells you would still be breaking the law Yes, I know that. But what is the reasoning behind it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 the reason is so you cant use a ten shot etc and shoot the hell out of ducks geese etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huffhuff Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Oh ok. But it's ok for me to shoot the hell out of pigeons?!? Silly law. But hey ho, it is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyb Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 Crazy law but true. I've also never been on a driven duck drive with anyone using non-tox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarecrow243 Posted August 31, 2011 Report Share Posted August 31, 2011 yes the gun laws are a bit iffy here and there it needs to be sorted i am my self haveing a problem and trying to sort it out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted September 1, 2011 Report Share Posted September 1, 2011 (edited) Quote “well the 500 on the pond on our shoot seem to multiply and I've never heard of one showing lead poisoning “ In a wild situation that’s hardly surprising. Dead birds have a habit of vanashing as predators and scavingers clear them up. A guy did an experiment some years hiding 50 dead ducks on a marsh , marking the spot with canes and when he returned a week later could only find 4. Foxes , rats , gulls and crows cleared most of them up. I used to work on one of the largest waterfowl collections in Europe and my boss shot a crow over a couple of the ponds thinking he was using steel ( in fact it was a lead shell ). The result was 7 dead ducks over the next month all killed by lead posioning. ( we always had the vet do an autopsy on any lost adult duck to minimise the risk of disease in the collection ) Different species differ in their suseptability to lead posioning , though it probably more to do with their feeding methods and the substrate at the bottom of a waterway. The vast majority of the lead posioned duck I have caught in duck ringing traps have been pochard and tufted duck with mallard ranking third. Never found any teal of wigeon suffering from lead posioning. Scarecrow , yes a lot of research has been done cutting duck open and finding lead pellets in the gizzard. There is a paper by a guy called Berry who looked at 100s of shot duck on the Ouse washes and found mallard and pintail the worse affected. Al4x , I suggest next summer when you are rearing mallard in their pens tip a few oz of lead no 6 into the pond and see how many are alive after a month. I would bet you a tenner you will lose 30 to 50 % of them. The Yanks have done a lot of work on this – do a web search and there is a wealth of information on the subject. Edited September 1, 2011 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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