tell me about airgun ballistics

[kent]

I shouldn't be getting into this really, but ALL pellets are rising when they leave the barrel (assuming you are shooting horizontally at a target at a moderate distance). As you rightly say, pellets drop due to gravity, which is why they need to be rising as they exit the barrel, if they didn't they would never reach your intended target (unless you only shoot things below you!). My point is that .22 pellets (due to their heavier weight and slower trajectory) will have a shorter parabola and therefore RISE above your zero point more than a .177 and drop past it again a shorter distance. This is not contoversial, it's fact.

 

As to energy difference, well the ranges that it would make any difference between life and death of a rabbit is much further than anyone should be shooting.

 

And I don't understand your last point, .177 are £8 for 500 .22 are £11.

 

Any hoo, it doesn't matter what you use as long as you use it well.

 

 

I like .22 a great deal but I just prefere the flatter trajectory and faster travel of the .177 pellet.

 

 

what a load of rot, pellets rising as they leave the barrel- you been playing with programs too much that illustate this as an easy to read graph. it don't matter if the projectile comes from a 50 bmg or a .177 air pistol they drop as soon as they leave the barrel very tiny amounts initially and increase the curve of drop as they slow.

 

If you dont understand my last point you need to have a little knoledge of stockholding and buying / generally running a buisness. If raw merterial prices rise constantly you buy as much as you can in, over time you will recoup the expenditure and more. On the other hand if it fluctuates you buy a lot in and it drops in cost you have a load of overpriced materials on your hands.

[kent]

Hmm, well, my tables say this if I zero at 8 yards:

 

On a .177 8.44 grain pellet with a BC of 0.022 there is half an inch drop between 45 and 48 yards. At 33 to 38 yards the drop is just under half an inch too.

The flat..ish range is between 15 and 33 yards which means a rise of .55 inch at 15 yards, a peak of .8 at 23 yards and down again to .46 at 33 yards but that is still a variance of a quarter inch.

 

Quarter of an inch on a pigeon headshot plus a little bit of trigger pull and/or wind makes for an easy miss, even if it is at 30 yards. So I think, ranging is crucial whatever the range, whatever the calibre.

 

Also, with that BC in mind, I have to allow for a pellet drop of 2 inches from zero at 50 yards. That means the pellet dropped an inch in its last 5 yards which is lot of energy loss. I'd estimate that the pellet had lost a third of its energy between 45 and 50 yards.

 

And, if you go for a BC of say 0.014 then that last 2 inches becomes 3, so I think pellet choice is important too.

 

Dicky

 

 

It took me a lttle time to read through that all, for hunting purposes i should reduce you peak trajectory 0.8" is too high at 23 yds IMO you encounter lots of what should be easy shots at this range and you will miss over the top a lot. There are many ways to align the line of sight better with the trajectory curve. Mounting in extra high mounts flattens the discrepency at long range but makes for hard shooting at short. I like a very low bore to scope centre personally using extra low mounts and small objective scopes, putting a slight downwards cant by ever so slightly packing the rear mount. This latter meathod removes a lot of issues and can make a very effective point and shoot rig for the ranges i mention. All you need to know is how far 35yds is and learn you windages well. Don't get too wraped up in pellet BC's they tend to be inaccurate and vary a lot as regards which barrel they are fired from best knowing whats good whats bad and what shoots well

[kent]

That would be fair comment if I was wounding quarry with any regularity, I don't call one wounding (which was despatched seconds later with a follow up) out of around 200 rabbits this year regular. I do also regularly compete in HFT as do several of my colleagues, it's how we met.

 

One in 200 wounded requiring a second go? Thats hard to achieve in so called Humane slaughter, without being too graphic even well aimed brain shots dont always work to plan

[Dekers]

One in 200 wounded requiring a second go? Thats hard to achieve in so called Humane slaughter, without being too graphic even well aimed brain shots dont always work to plan

 

 

 

Go on Kent! This is fun looking in from outside.

 

But I have to admit, ONLY 1 not stopped FIRST GO out of 200, with and Air Rifle is a little hard to accept!

 

[pabs]

I shouldn't be getting into this really, but ALL pellets are rising when they leave the barrel (assuming you are shooting horizontally at a target at a moderate distance). As you rightly say, pellets drop due to gravity, which is why they need to be rising as they exit the barrel, if they didn't they would never reach your intended target (unless you only shoot things below you!). My point is that .22 pellets (due to their heavier weight and slower trajectory) will have a shorter parabola and therefore RISE above your zero point more than a .177 and drop past it again a shorter distance. This is not contoversial, it's fact.

 

As to energy difference, well the ranges that it would make any difference between life and death of a rabbit is much further than anyone should be shooting.

 

And I don't understand your last point, .177 are £8 for 500 .22 are £11.

 

Any hoo, it doesn't matter what you use as long as you use it well.

 

 

I like .22 a great deal but I just prefere the flatter trajectory and faster travel of the .177 pellet.

 

Pellets RISE as they leave the barrel??!!

 

Oh dear.

[Dekers]

Pellets RISE as they leave the barrel??!!

 

Oh dear.

 

 

Yes, I think we know, I suspect there is confusion with some because the fact is the barrel is pointing UP, (in relation to scope/sights) it is NOT horizontal, hence why many believe the pellet/bullet goes up upon leaving the barrel, of course it does not.

 

It will initially go up in relation to the horizontal, but not to the direction the barrel is pointed!

[-Mongrel-]

One in 200 wounded requiring a second go? Thats hard to achieve in so called Humane slaughter, without being too graphic even well aimed brain shots dont always work to plan.

 

 

I'm not going to tell you that every one fell over motionless instantly, you'll always get some that twitch for a short time afterwards, but they are not running around or escaping wounded.

I don't really care how hard to believe you find that, it does seem you have a penchant for disbelief in many of your posts, but, I am quite happy that of the guesstimated total for this year, I've only had one that hasn't been dead pretty much instantly.

[Dekers]

I'm not going to tell you that every one fell over motionless instantly, you'll always get some that twitch for a short time afterwards, but they are not running around or escaping wounded.

I don't really care how hard to believe you find that, it does seem you have a penchant for disbelief in many of your posts, but, I am quite happy that of the guesstimated total for this year, I've only had one that hasn't been dead pretty much instantly.

 

Mongrel, I have no desire/intention of getting in the middle of your debate with Kent, you guys crack on!

 

I have been doing this a long time, I also spent 10 years as a Team Target shooter and 9 years as team coach with that club. I have a lot of experience with a lot of tools on a lot of targets and quarry, and there is no getting away from the fact that I could not get close to 199 first shot dead/dead but twitching bunnies, and 1 needing a second shot with an Air rifle! That is remarkable to say the least!

 

[kdubya]

in the interests of keeping a good argument going some light reading is provided

 

oh and as to the original question to keep it simple 177 for 12lbs .22 for fac

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/bullet_trajectory.htm

[-Mongrel-]

It may help that my permissions are mainly paddocks and therefore I've been able to check my ranges and, my shooting distances are kept sensible. I also take the time to make sure everything is shooting straight every time the gun comes out of the slip or has been cleaned. I also have the restraint to not take on any shot I consider marginal. I have spent an entire evening watching longer range rabbits without firing a shot. I don't pull the trigger unless it's a pretty certain shot and I can honestly say, I can only think of one this year that had me up and running over to deliver a mercy shot.

 

I'm not guaranteeing 200 rabbits, it maybe be 150 ish, maybe more, but I am out every week hunting, plus a day a week on the targets. I probably average 5 a visit so, at least 30 visits at 5 a visit is 150. That is a minimum as I'm often out 2 or sometimes 3 times a week. As I said, the figure is a guess-timate.

[FalconFN]

what a load of rot, pellets rising as they leave the barrel- you been playing with programs too much that illustate this as an easy to read graph. it don't matter if the projectile comes from a 50 bmg or a .177 air pistol they drop as soon as they leave the barrel very tiny amounts initially and increase the curve of drop as they slow.

 

Perhaps we are not fully understanding each other, but as far as I can tell you are suggesting that you can hit a target that is horizontal to you without your pellet rising but only dropping. How does that work?

 

To avoid confusion I've gone to the trouble of drawing a little picture.

 

It's the same as when you throw a ball - you don't throw it horizontally as it won't get to where it needs to be. In short you have to act AGAINST the force of gravity unless you want to hit low.

Edited September 1, 2011 by FalconFN

[Dekers]

Perhaps we are not fully understanding each other, but as far as I can tell you are suggesting that you can hit a target that is horizontal to you without your pellet rising but only dropping. How does that work?

 

To avoid confusion I've gone to the trouble of drawing a little picture.

 

It's the same as when you throw a ball - you don't throw it horizontally as it won't get to where it needs to be. In short you have to act AGAINST the force of gravity unless you want to hit low.

 

 

This is why FalconFN.

 

........ I suspect there is confusion with some because the fact is the barrel is pointing UP, (in relation to scope/sights) it is NOT horizontal, hence why many believe the pellet/bullet goes up upon leaving the barrel, of course it does not.

 

It will initially go up in relation to the horizontal, but not to the direction the barrel is pointed!

 

 

Sorry, your excellent pics of YOU is CORRECT, and ME is wrong! The Fact is in YOU the barrel is actually pointing up slightly to give the terminal impact point of ME!

 

NO pellet or bullet actually rises above the barrel elevation after leaving the barrel, they only fall!

 

ATB!

Edited September 1, 2011 by Dekers

[FalconFN]

This is why FalconFN.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, your excellent pics of YOU is CORRECT, and ME is wrong! The Fact is in YOU the barrel is actually pointing up slightly to give the terminal impact point of ME!

 

NO pellet or bullet actually rises above the barrel elevation after leaving the barrel, they only fall!

 

ATB!

 

Exactly! the barrel is pointing upward so the pellet will be fired at an inclined angle and therefore is rising (I've just altered the pic as my sloppy drawing wasn't accurate), as I said in my original post:

 

'At any range over 10 yards there is an advantage in .177 because a .22 pellet will rise higher above your crosshairs and then dip below much more rapidly.'

 

I can't believe that anyone could argue with that, but I could probably have worded it a little bit better.

 

ATB

Edited September 1, 2011 by FalconFN

[Dekers]

This is why FalconFN.

 

 

 

 

Sorry, your excellent pics of YOU is CORRECT, and ME is wrong! The Fact is in YOU the barrel is actually pointing up slightly to give the terminal impact point of ME!

 

NO pellet or bullet actually rises above the barrel elevation after leaving the barrel, they only fall!

 

ATB!

 

 

Exactly! the barrel is pointing upward so the pellet will be fired at an inclined angle and therefore is rising (I've just altered the pic as my sloppy drawing wasn't accurate), as I said in my original post:

 

'At any range over 10 yards there is an advantage in .177 because a .22 pellet will rise higher above your crosshairs and then dip below much more rapidly.'

 

I can't believe that anyone could argue with that, but I could probably have worded it a little bit better.

 

ATB

 

As per the big bold bit above.....

All I can suggest is you guys have misunderstood each others definition!

 

But with all due respect your original drawing of ME clearly showed the pellet path rising above the barrel elevation, it now comes out parallel and falling, exactly as I described YOU in my previous post!

 

ATB!

Edited September 2, 2011 by Dekers

[FalconFN]

As per the big bold bit above.....

All I can suggest is you guys have misunderstood each others definition!

 

But with all due respect your original drawing of ME clearly showed the pellet path rising above the barrel elevation, it now comes out parallel and falling, exactly as I described YOU in my previous post!

 

ATB!

Yes, as I said sloppy drawing - it was a sketch to show the pellet rising after exiting an elevated barrel, but the barrel wasn't elevated quite enough so I raised it a little more. I assume you and Kent thought that I believed a pellet would exit a barrel and then suddenly defy the laws of gravity all by it's self?! I clearly didn't (I said the pellet would rise above the crosshairs and not the elevation of the barrel), so I think you are right about the misunderstanding.

 

Going back to the OP, my origional point about the pellet rising above the line of sight is still true - .22 will rise more than a .177 (ie. the barrel will have to be elevated to a higher degree)

to compensate for the heavier and slower projectile - which is one of the resons I personally prefere .177.

 

I do enjoy a good discussion, but it is too easy to missunderstand and to be misunderstood.

 

All the best.

 

as I never said the

[kent]

FalconFN,

your wording was very poor, though your sketch takes the biscuit as it omits the line of sight from the whole equasion. Its glaringly obvious to anyone with the slightest modicum of intelect that if the pellet starts to drop as it leaves the barrel (rather than rising) you need to point your barrel higher. BUT can you see this in real life? no we are talking fractions of one degree, so again i reitterate "up to 35yds there is no real hunting use trajectory advantage in .177 over .22" or .20 for that matter! I have shot them all. Peak trajectory over the line of sight is controled by altering the set zero range to gain the best from the arc, angling the mount can also help as can adjustment in bore to scope height.

 

If you want a flatter shooting air rifle buy an FAC .22 even then 30ftlb or thereabouts this will only gain you around 20yds (although drastically reduced windages with high BC heavyweight pellets like Bis mags)

[PLH1966]

A few facts as I see it, based on experience.

 

I shoot a .22 HW77 Chrono'd at 11.8 ftlbs with H&N FTT

 

Zero set at 30 yds

 

At 40 yds I aim 2 milldots

 

At 50 yds ( Outside my killing range but tested at FT) 4 milldots.

 

As for projectiles rising as they leave a LEVEL ( Horizontal) barrel, as soon as it leaves the barrel it begins to slow. Fact, Therefore, you dont need a physics degree to realise that it will also begining to drop as that & the combined effect of gravity takes it's toll.

Edited September 2, 2011 by PLH1966

[colin lad]

Go on Kent! This is fun looking in from outside.

 

But I have to admit, ONLY 1 not stopped FIRST GO out of 200, with and Air Rifle is a little hard to accept!

 

got to agree there,

i have shot rabbits at 30yards with the lr shots that would normally drop then dead only to have them run off down the hole

 

colin

[secretagentmole]

My S10 in .177 is running at 11.35 fpe using defiants, it is hitting rabbits at 70 metres and dropping them, just because some of us have practised at this range, are capable of using the scope, a rangefinder and know our permissions well enough to remember markers is no need to have a go. If you remember I did say practise. It depends on the conditions as well. I only take shots like that in dead calm conditions.

 

Do not make those who put the work in to see what the gun and the scope can do out to be fools. I know of others who have take 80m rabbit shots with a sub 12. It is possible, you only need 3 foot pound at point of impact. Might I suggest you try setting a target box up at that distance and see of you can hit it, then what shape the pellets are when you do, the results will surprise you. They are still flattened even at 70 metres.

 

Actual calculations for 11.5 fpe shooting indicates a theoretical kill radius of somewhere like 210 yards (giving a striking force of plus 3 fpe)! I could not see that with my hawke 4-16, 70 metres I have a good enough image at 6x magnification to enable me to accurately shoot in good conditions. Remember practise makes perfect!

[Dekers]

My S10 in .177 is running at 11.35 fpe using defiants, it is hitting rabbits at 70 metres and dropping them, just because some of us have practised at this range, are capable of using the scope, a rangefinder and know our permissions well enough to remember markers is no need to have a go. If you remember I did say practise. It depends on the conditions as well. I only take shots like that in dead calm conditions.

 

Do not make those who put the work in to see what the gun and the scope can do out to be fools. I know of others who have take 80m rabbit shots with a sub 12. It is possible, you only need 3 foot pound at point of impact. Might I suggest you try setting a target box up at that distance and see of you can hit it, then what shape the pellets are when you do, the results will surprise you. They are still flattened even at 70 metres.

 

Actual calculations for 11.5 fpe shooting indicates a theoretical kill radius of somewhere like 210 yards (giving a striking force of plus 3 fpe)! I could not see that with my hawke 4-16, 70 metres I have a good enough image at 6x magnification to enable me to accurately shoot in good conditions. Remember practise makes perfect!

 

 

 

Just when it looked like we were moving on!