adam f Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 OK so the wife has come round to the idea and given the green light for a dog. We have decided on a Cocker, most probably a bitch, and she likes the liver / chocolate ones. We have had dogs in the family before so not a total newbie but this will be the first I have owned one in my house. So I face the minefield of trying to find one... where to look? What to look for? Breeding lines? etc, etc? Any tips and advice greatfully recieved! Adam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted September 3, 2011 Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Hi Adam, I'm way from being an expert having just done what you propose to do I can let you know my thoughts and experiences though. My own little cocker Merla (black bitch) was chosen from a known and KC registered breeder, We did quite a lot of research on the parental line (Measydderwen, Wernffrwd, Fenlord and Timsgarry to name a few) although it must be borne in mind that good lines don't guarantee a good dog but it will most likely limit the chances of getting a duffer so worth the extra money. If you're planning on using your dog to work I would advise having it docked (registered) and dew-clawed as both will lessen the risk of injury in the future. Make sure your chosen breeder has a genuine interest in you, your background and dogs future, rather than being a puppy farmer purely motivated by cash. Also ensure that you are provided with correct registration documents and that the dam and sire have both passed the necessary health checks (can't remember the two but I'll look later). I have to say our 9 week old cocker is bright as a button, within a week she would come to five short blasts on a whistle (I blow it at feed times) and will 'go to bed', 'hup' to hand, voice and whistle and has her nose and paws into everything. A word of warning, be prepared to fall head over heels for the little tike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam f Posted September 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2011 Thanks for the advice, have pinged off a few emails to breeders so will see what the photos come back like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butcherboy Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Adam What do you want to do with the cocker? Trial ? beating ? Shooting dog? Knowing that will help you approach the right lines. Mick has mentioned a few of the top trialling lines & along with the likes of Chyknell & Mallowdale etc you wouldn't go far wrong. These dogs will tend to be more expensive & might be far too hot for what you want need. Are you after a pup or a young bitch thats ready for trainig etc ? Let us know and we can advise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Let it be a puppy, dont try and put an old head on young shoulders- just have fun for a good while yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam f Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I'm intending to use her for shooting primarily, so that will be walked up rough shooting, pigeon etc. I do a few driven days a year but again these are more walk and stand rather than formal driven. I'm not intending to use her for FT, as for cost I dont mind paying extra for the right dog, but interesting what you say about a top FT line dog being too 'hot' A puppy bitch is my plan, and then wait a while before starting to train her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butcherboy Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Go get the Hawcroft DVD series while you wait for it to arrive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam f Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 What would you make of the 'too hot' part of a FT pedigree dog? We had intended to go this route thinking that a better breeding would give a better dog? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Hi Adam, I'm way from being an expert having just done what you propose to do I can let you know my thoughts and experiences though. My own little cocker Merla (black bitch) was chosen from a known and KC registered breeder, We did quite a lot of research on the parental line (Measydderwen, Wernffrwd, Fenlord and Timsgarry to name a few) although it must be borne in mind that good lines don't guarantee a good dog but it will most likely limit the chances of getting a duffer so worth the extra money. If you're planning on using your dog to work I would advise having it docked (registered) and dew-clawed as both will lessen the risk of injury in the future. Make sure your chosen breeder has a genuine interest in you, your background and dogs future, rather than being a puppy farmer purely motivated by cash. Also ensure that you are provided with correct registration documents and that the dam and sire have both passed the necessary health checks (can't remember the two but I'll look later). Well said. Do the research now and meet breeders and the dam (and sire if you can) to maximise your chances of having a great little dog that is easier to train. Cockers can have eye problems so make sure they have had a vet check them over and that the parents have been checked. If something seems odd, ie no paperwork, or they seem keen to shift a certain pup then think very hard before parting with cash. I would add that cockers are great fun, fantastic little characters that are intelligent and very, very keen. They need mental exercise as much as physical but as they tend to take a little longer to 'mature' you can keep the training fun and take your time. Enjoy the first few months when they are puppys and don't train them as such, play with them loads and don't push anything on them as they can be easily offended. Don't expect them to be fully steady before about 2 years (mine is 14 months and although she is able to sit in a hide for 2 hours she still has the occasional excitement wee when she sees us!). They can be adept at 'selective hearing' if they think they know what to do more than you, so try to mix things up when you start training so they don't start second-guess what they should be doing. Have fun! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Do the research now and meet breeders and the dam (and sire if you can) to maximise your chances of having a great little dog that is easier to train. Trial dogs can be hot, some more than others, but they are also bred to be trainable. Seeing the sire and dam is a must if you are going for a well bred dog and are unsure of what you are getting. Also remember that many hours of training and conditioning will have gone into these dogs, your pup won't just grow into one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 What would you make of the 'too hot' part of a FT pedigree dog? We had intended to go this route thinking that a better breeding would give a better dog? Mmm, FTch lines isn't the be all and end all- If its a dog for work the parents should both be proven workers and examine the reasons to why the breeder thought his own bitch suitable to be bred from "it makes them better if they have had pups", "money" usually nobody admits this one! they all tell a story Too hot? over used statement but fast cars are better off with fast experianced drivers. Its not fair to say that top Ftch lines always makes a better dog for all people and all uses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiLisCer Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 I would be more inclined to make sure its parents are health tested in accordance with the current guidance from the KC - the incidence of PRA in Cockers is on the increase, buy from health tested stock. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mick miller Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 (edited) I've done nothing other than the basic 'hup' or sit and recall with Merla (both handy as mine seems to go nuts occasionally and only the whistle will bring her back to me when she gets fixated on digging or otherwise investigating). The sit is useful to get in early especially when you want to get her to sit up so you can grab her when cleaning up a toilet, stopping her running through it and into the house. Other than that I'm not going to do much else except basic manners (leave it/drop it) and a bit of exposure to situations, other dogs (once her jabs are done), traffic, livestock etc. No dummy work for sure for months, no hard training just lots and lots of play and fun. Cockers I've heard can get a bit resentful if pushed too hard too early, she's only tiny and needs a bit of manners, love but most of all playtime. Be prepared for one energetic little pup though, and get thinking on how you can occupy that mind! (I've used play tunnels, paddling pools, plant pots upturned with toys underneath, cardboard boxes with treats in, rolled up paper with treats in and generally hide these about to keep her mind working). She also loves chasing a rag on a stick and will merrily do so for hours a week (for now). The play tunnel (a cat tunnel) she absolutely loves and will bomb around the garden then through the tunnel. Hide a treat in the tunnel and watch her bum back-wiggle as she gets a whiff of it on the way past at 200 miles an hour. This is Merla at 9 weeks having just commandeered the cat bed! Edited September 5, 2011 by mick miller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 buy from the best trialling lines that you can then at least you know the parents can do the job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam f Posted September 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Thanks for all the really great advice. The wife and I have been looking and reserching for a week or so now and are pretty confused. I think we have sussed out that we want a puppy with some FT lines in its breeding but not too closely as this will be our first and as said above - dont want a dog that is 'too hot' We would love to get one via a gundog trainer but from the dozen or so we have spoken to they all have long waiting lists, with most not having litters now until 2012. I'm nervous about buying from other sources - we have seen alot for sale in Wales, but have been warned of puppy farming?! It's scarey stuff and we feel pretty confused as to what to get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albertan_J Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Get a pup from healthy parents you won't go far wrong. Ft lines are a good way to help pick but not the be all and end all I think its all got a bit silly and almost fake with dogs natural will to hunt for you now given silly robot like parameters that would never really matter in the field, I'd rather a dog bred from proper working stock I had seen picking up or in the beating line but that's just my opinion and I will probably get slated for it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WGD Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 Get a pup from healthy parents you won't go far wrong. Ft lines are a good way to help pick but not the be all and end all I think its all got a bit silly and almost fake with dogs natural will to hunt for you now given silly robot like parameters that would never really matter in the field, I'd rather a dog bred from proper working stock I had seen picking up or in the beating line but that's just my opinion and I will probably get slated for it You would but I can't be bothered I agree in a certain respect, if you see a good working bitch and a good working dog and they are to be mated chances are you will end up with a good working pup... but I'll bet FTCh isn't that far back in the pedigree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cocker boy Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 nail on the head wgd. Where do people think these so called good working dogs come from?. Its all rubbish about stamina etc that people with **** dogs go on about. The only difference is a good trial dog will do enough in an hour to last the good shooting dog all day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PERCE Posted September 5, 2011 Report Share Posted September 5, 2011 You would but I can't be bothered I agree in a certain respect, if you see a good working bitch and a good working dog and they are to be mated chances are you will end up with a good working pup... but I'll bet FTCh isn't that far back in the pedigree! & great number of pups are bred & sold for good money on the back of others work. How many adverts do you see 'Sire by xxx FTCH'? I'd buy direct from FTCH stock, at least you know that the parent has abiltiy & trainabilty, proven & judged by others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albertan_J Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 You would but I can't be bothered I agree in a certain respect, if you see a good working bitch and a good working dog and they are to be mated chances are you will end up with a good working pup... but I'll bet FTCh isn't that far back in the pedigree! I wouldn't bet against you. I think a lot of what you get out of a dog is what you put into it in time and effort Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) Ok let me put this to you all. I have been looking to add a Lab to the kennel some while now, but to be fair i am struggling to find a pup that strikes me as what i realy want OR even one were true thought went into the mating. I don't want FTch to FTch on and on as i do feel it makes a high tempo dog maybee ideal for trailing BUT not nesasarily the best dog to sit in a muddy gutter a few hours in the rain or work stuff out for himself on the marsh in the dark with minimum or no real handling (if trails consisted of this sort of act i should be much keener on red letters). With a true lab build double coat of a decent height capable of carrying a big canada out of a flow, yet agile enough to jump gates. when i ask the question of the bitches owner why they chose the particular stud dog i get the resonse "because its the best dog in the country presently" or " its won blah, blah, blah" i have yet to hear anyone who selected the match based on type, conformation or desireable traits other than it having won something. Now don't get me wrong at least trails are fairly judged IF you get a run but how many more chances do the in-bunch get? how many times has that winner been disqualified before finally showing its worth and actually winning? How many great dogs have been out in the hands of owners who don't even get a run and eventually get disolusioned, no awards but are they not realy worth consideration over and above a champ that has also been disqualified a few times? Ok we mostly know that working lines of cockers come from but a few common ansestors and over use of particular stud dogs is rife in many gundog breeds. The OP is probebly going to stuggle to even find a decent working bitch being bred that is missing much in the way of Red in its last five generations, though it is best not to be too swayed by the letters FTch occuring at every bend for a first go at creating a general shooting mans dog and if the dog is to do double duty as a pet it will not go down well with the wife if it is looking for pheasants in every bit of cover 24 - 7 Edited September 6, 2011 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adam f Posted September 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Lots of good info guys, it's all helping my research. I never realised it would be this tough trying to find one! I've now got a better idea what I'm after and have decided to buy local and wait for a puppy from the right litter. If I can get a dog with FT lines that isn't too hot I hope she will make a nice balance of working dig and family pet. Fascinating stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t jack Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 (edited) Buy from the best and hope for the rest, the notion that all trial dogs are too hot is rubbish, many dont cut it as trial dogs and are sold on as either part trained or trained, with the only fault being they are not hot enough, if you want a good working dog and you want to take out the luck factor in what you get, id be looking at buying a part trained or trained dog, yes it will cost you a little more than a 8 week old pup, but the hours of training and feeding costs it would come with would far outweigh the extra price and youd have a dog ready to run this season and none of the puppy problems Edited September 6, 2011 by t jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 Buy from the best and hope for the rest, the notion that all trial dogs are too hot is rubbish, many dont cut it as trial dogs and are sold on as either part trained or trained, with the only fault being they are not hot enough, if you want a good working dog and you want to take out the luck factor in what you get, id be looking at buying a part trained or trained dog, yes it will cost you a little more than a 8 week old pup, but the hours of training and feeding costs it would come with would far outweigh the extra price and youd have a dog ready to run this season and none of the puppy problems So trial dogs are not too hot, yet many good dogs are sold on because they aint hot enough for trialing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albertan_J Posted September 6, 2011 Report Share Posted September 6, 2011 The problem I see with buying trained or part trained is that the most important person (the owner) misses out on the training lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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