leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 It's not a conviction. For that you have to be CONVICTED of something. It's simply a warning after an admission of guilt. As you have pointed out, to hold a sia licence you mustn't have been convicted of any offence, OR have any cautions. That's because they are two seperate things. a caution is still an admittance of guilt of a criminal crime and it comes up on a CRB check as a conviction. Will post the link later when get home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 a caution is still an admittance of guilt of a criminal crime and it comes up on a CRB check as a conviction. Will post the link later when get home I've got my CRB enhanced disclosure in front of me. It clearly states: Police Records of Convictions, Cautions, Reprimands and Warnings. Reprimands and warnings are punishments given to juveniles. If convictions and cautions were the same thing there would be no need to list them separately, as a caution would be covered under the convictions banner. But they are very different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 a caution is dealt with there and then at the police station to save you going to court if you admit the offence there and then and the crime is low enough to warrant it. Its then called a conviction if you go to court and you are then "convicted" by your peers on the crime. You get caught with say a bag of coke. You can take a caution at the station for it which will be a less conviction or go to court. The conviction would be the same but at court they have the power to issue a higher fine or comm service as you are deemed to try and get away with it and waste time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry d Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 bEST THING FOR COLD CALLERS IS TO INVITE THEM IN FOR A HUG AND A NICE CUPPA. Apologies for shouting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 (edited) a caution is dealt with there and then at the police station to save you going to court if you admit the offence there and then and the crime is low enough to warrant it. Its then called a conviction if you go to court and you are then "convicted" by your peers on the crime. You get caught with say a bag of coke. You can take a caution at the station for it which will be a less conviction or go to court. The conviction would be the same but at court they have the power to issue a higher fine or comm service as you are deemed to try and get away with it and waste time. Here you go. Fifth section down should give you the answer http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Beingstoppedorarrestedbythepolice/DG_196450 Edited November 12, 2011 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 leeds chimp Thanks for the reminder. They have exactly the same effect. I had missed that little classic from our "expert". Assisting someone to leave is clearly not the first option, but it does depend on just how nasty they get. I was originally pointing out the options, but some like to dive straight in, exaggerate, jump to conclusions and then start making idiotic remarks about Parish Councils and Neighbourhood Watches. A bit odd that - using "Neighbourhood Watch" in a negative context. I thought the Police welcomed these. Our Greater Manchester Firearms lad certainly does. I do start to wonder if some ex Policemen actually did serve, or were perhaps civilian workers who worked in a Police Station. Who knows? ;) :hmm: As Poontang has already pointed out, a caution and a conviction are not the same. Only convistions have to be declared in normal employment situations. Both would however result in a close and awkward scrutiny of your SGC or FAC. As for your earlier question regarding door staff ejecting persons and you escorting someone off the drive it has already been covered. But for the hard of understanding here we go again: Person in pub causing a problem can be ejected immediately as the problem will continue if he is left there, and it invariably by nature involves other innocent persons. The ejection will be covered by Breach of the Peace legislation, not Trespass legislation. See below. Person on your drive being stroppy to you cannot be physically ejected as closing the door will stop the problem. If they choose to remain outside your door you call the police and they will consider arresting for breach of the peace - not trespass. You have no right to immediately eject them from your property. If you take hold of an unwilling person and escort him off your drive in the circumstance you outline then you are committing an assault. You have no legal authority to do so. You do not have to injure someone to commit an assault and the actions you describe amount to Battery. See below. Arrest at Common Law for Breach of the Peace A breach of the peace is not in itself a criminal offence, but the police and any other person have a power of arrest where there are reasonable grounds for believing a breach of the peace is taking place or is imminent. The Court of Appeal defined a breach of the peace as being ‘an act done or threatened to be done which either actually harms a person, or in his presence, his property, or is likely to cause such harm being done’ – see R v Howell. This power of arrest will, of course, be closely scrutinised in connection with Article 5 (the right to liberty and security), Article 10 (the right to freedom of expression) and Article 11 (the right to freedom of assembly and association). Elements of Battery The following elements must be proven to establish a case for battery: (1) an act by a defendant; (2) an intent to cause harmful or offensive contact on the part of the defendant; and (3) harmful or offensive contact to the plaintiff. The Act The act must result in one of two forms of contact. Causing any physical harm or injury to the victim—such as a cut, a burn, or a bullet wound—could constitute battery, but actual injury is not required. Even though there is no apparent bruise following harmful contact, the defendant can still be guilty of battery; occurrence of a physical illness subsequent to the contact may also be actionable. The second type of contact that may constitute battery causes no actual physical harm but is, instead, offensive or insulting to the victim. Examples include spitting in someone's face or offensively touching someone against his or her will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratman2 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 i do love that term the joy of liveing in a caravan in the **** end of nowhere is no one cold calls, not even a post man has been to my door for 4 years You lucky lucky sod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratman2 Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Jeepers creepers UKPoacher, yer a bit heavy mate, we're not in court you know, just on a forum. :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Not the same situation at all if you think about it. A person causing problems in a bar cannot easily be dealt with by simply closing your front door. THEY have to be taken away from the problem. A canvasser at your door acting stroppily is not a problem if you close the door. Gordon is unlikely to follow his own methods. He doesn't have the courage to post his grounds for his views let alone get to grips with someone. The type of person you would find organising Neighbourhood Watch meetings, chairing Parish Councils, the little man with the big dog you see in the park. Some PW members might however be a little more enthusiastic and it is to them, not the pompous idiot who posts this rubbish that I am saying: Don't even think about laying hands on them! It is fraught with danger from many angles including being assaulted yourself, having to injure the other party to control them if they doen't go quietly and of course the liklihood of a counter complaint for assualt. Any force used has to fulfill three criteria to be lawful; It has to be justified, necessary and proportionate. Evicting a stroppy door to door salesman off your drive would never be justified or necessary in the eyes of the law. The Common Law power to evict trespassers comes with caveats including calling the police to ensure a breach of the peace does not occur from either party. Taking hold of someone nowadays is almost guaranteed to result in a counter claim for assault. You would have to justify your actions and the three questions you would be asked is: Why didn't you close the door? Why didn't you call the police? Why did you feel it necessary to evict them immediately? At best you might get a Warning or Caution for assault. At worst a conviction. If you have a SGC or FAC you could kiss that goodbye. It is stupid advice. Don't do it! i'm with the poacher on this, never had a stroppy salesman on the door anyway, they leave soon enough when i say i'm not interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 guess we will have to agree to disagree then as you dont need any reason to escort someone out of a bar/nightclub just the fact you want them to leave is enough reason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaconBoy Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 stand at the window and just mouth 'WHAT' a few times,bit rude i know but they get the message and go,and theres no risk of getting lifted or maybe not or cautioned or charged or told off or loosing your guns...................................... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 It's not a conviction. For that you have to be CONVICTED of something. It's simply a warning after an admission of guilt. As you have pointed out, to hold a sia licence you mustn't have been convicted of any offence, OR have any cautions. That's because they are two seperate things. Poontang - I concur, but in terms in getting or keeping a SGC / FAC - not a lot of difference. Both would severely hamper you. So, I do know what I'm talking about then? Jeepers creepers UKPoacher, yer a bit heavy mate, we're not in court you know, just on a forum. :blink: Sometimes you need a big hammer to get through thick wood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 guess we will have to agree to disagree then as you dont need any reason to escort someone out of a bar/nightclub just the fact you want them to leave is enough reason HUH? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Poontang - I concur, but in terms in getting or keeping a SGC / FAC - not a lot of difference. Both would severely hamper you. It didn't hamper me Gordon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eredel Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I find that one barrel over the head means "convince me"....two barrels means "NO".... Eric. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 guess we will have to agree to disagree then as you dont need any reason to escort someone out of a bar/nightclub just the fact you want them to leave is enough reason I don't understand that. If someone gives you no reason to ask them to leave, why would you ask them to leave in the first place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leeds chimp Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't understand that. If someone gives you no reason to ask them to leave, why would you ask them to leave in the first place? we call it nipping it in the bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 we call it nipping it in the bud Nipping what in the bud? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paddy Galore! Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 we call it nipping it in the bud :lol: you do talk some utter balls sometimes, if the clubs management caught on that you were just throwing people out for no good reason you'd be looking for a new job, what clubs do you work in leeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 :lol: you do talk some utter balls sometimes, if the clubs management caught on that you were just throwing people out for no good reason you'd be looking for a new job, what clubs do you work in leeds? He only guests in clubs. By day he's a legal consultant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rushjob Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 guess we will have to agree to disagree then as you dont need any reason to escort someone out of a bar/nightclub just the fact you want them to leave is enough reason Your power to remove them in those circs is granted under the Licensing Act. UK Poacher is correct and in fact were you just to remove someone from your drive under the circumstances that started the thread, ie nothing to do with bars or clubs, then I would hazard that you would end up getting lifted for Affray. Take it from me, and UK Poacher, that to physically remove someone from your drive / garden simply for trespass with no threat of immediate unlawful violence towards yourself, your family or property then the likely outcome is you getting a criminal record of one sort or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSPUK Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 great post -- I love it when two know it all's start arguing. Me I just say thank you for calling but i am not interested dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigeonblasterian Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 If idiots did not think they could throw people off their drive for no reason.We would not get to have a laugh at there expense. And if people did not keep winding them up this thread would be a lot shorter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garygreengrass Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 If idiots did not think they could throw people off their drive for no reason.We would not get to have a laugh at there expense. And if people did not keep winding them up this thread would be a lot shorter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 "Hello? is that the police? There is a salesman at my door and he won't leave. You'll send someone round straight away? Lovely thanks" How do tales like this end? Oh yes.. "And they all lived happily ever after" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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