Dekers Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 They've changed the ground rules already then; the minimum legal ME for brock is 160ft/lbs. WMR. Better add that that is not necessarily my opinion. I missed that somewhere, I had no idea there was a minimum ME for Badger, where did you hear/see that? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wickedwickedmotox Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Chinese whispers eh, a couple of lads in our Deer Society have been involved with this and have been in telephone contact with Defra. A one day course has been suggested from them and nothing mentioned about DSC1. Once the course has been attended your license has to be sent to FA dept to put badger on the conditions,no rimmies, minimum .22 centrefire. Those that have put themselves forward have been asked to by the landowners who's ground they already cover for deer.The worry being that if they say no then strangers will be on their ground shooting whatever. Meetings by farmers to arrange an area of 150 sq km's have been done in top secret, even hiring cars to meet in secret locations. The idea was that the whole thing remain secret as reprisals from the badger huggers can be brutal and intimidating. I think it would be fair to say that the government and defra have now lost the element of surprise and the badgers out of the bag as to speak. There will be tv support with Adam Henson crying over his cows and Chris Packom offerin words of reasoning to his autumn watchers. The few who put themselves forward are having second thoughts now and I dont think it will happen now the press have hold of it. Cant see that there has een secret meetings, we have a farm in the southwest,know a lot of farmers and the southwest is one of the worst ares for tb,and theres been no secret meetings! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Its about as clear as mud olde mate, our Deer Society was approached by the NFU back in the spring at one of the shows we have a stand at,the general feeling from most members was not to get involved but a few individuals have followed up. Certainly this ultra top secret operation will now grow momentum, even heard on the news that the cull would be postponed until after the Olympics as there were worries of lack of police numbers in case of protests.Can of worms springs to mind, god knows what the legal calibre will be in the end. Absolutely right. Not only is the can open, they've lost the lid (not to mention the plot). I can't help thinking that the politicians have dug themselves a hole the only way out of which is by ladder and the farmers have it. If this does not now go ahead the London hunting rally is going to look like the monthly meeting of the Auchtermuchty Crochet Circle on a wet Sunday by comparison to what can probably be expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) The BASC have been involved with this and I hope they continue to be. See http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/search-website.cfm and search Badgers Click on the .pdf file BASC response to consultation on Tubercolosis Eradication Dated 2009 Edited December 16, 2011 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 I missed that somewhere, I had no idea there was a minimum ME for Badger, where did you hear/see that? Cheers! To complete it, with a bullet of not less than 38 grains. Or, you can use a shotgun not less than a 20 bore. When you think about it, there's no reason why you should know that, is there? Badgers Act 1973 section 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 To complete it, with a bullet of not less than 38 grains. Or, you can use a shotgun not less than a 20 bore. When you think about it, there's no reason why you should know that, is there? Badgers Act 1973 section 2. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 To complete it, with a bullet of not less than 38 grains. Or, you can use a shotgun not less than a 20 bore. When you think about it, there's no reason why you should know that, is there? Badgers Act 1973 section 2. I guess thats what the 3 day training course will cover, the 1973, 1991 and 1992 Amendments and the W&CA 1981, and any other Act someone can find that mentions badgers somewhere! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 The BASC have been involved with this and I hope they continue to be. See http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/search-website.cfm and search Badgers Click on the .pdf file BASC response to consultation on Tubercolosis Eradication Dated 2009 Yep, and if David BASC picks up on this one, perhaps he could find out what the reference to "nationally recognised qualifications" (NRQ) relates to. Further in the piece, lamping is mentioned as the free shooting option, but as far as I'm aware, there is no NRQ for this. Have we inadvertently just been lead to discover the source of the DSC rumour? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 See Post 54 above. " Badgers may be shot within the terms of an appropriate license using firearms and ammunition that comply with the Protection of Badgers Act 1992. That Act specifies a shotgun of not less than 20-bore, or a rifle firing ammunition with a bullet weight of not less than 38grains and generating a muzzle energy of not less than 160 ft/lb. Centre fire rifles such as the .22 Hornet, .222Rem, .223, 243Win and .22-250 are commonly used for fox control and are well within the limits required by the Act for the control of badgers. Deer managers use firearms of larger calibres and muzzle energies which would still be appropriate and effective against badgers". Please read this in context of the issue and bear in mind the date it was published. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Can anybody explain how the folk that remove these Badgers will be paid? Will the pelt have to be produced for e.g.How's it all going to work? Who pay's who and what's the process? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 See Post 54 above. " Badgers may be shot within the terms of an appropriate license using firearms and ammunition that comply with the Protection of Badgers Act 1992. That Act specifies a shotgun of not less than 20-bore, or a rifle firing ammunition with a bullet weight of not less than 38grains and generating a muzzle energy of not less than 160 ft/lb. Centre fire rifles such as the .22 Hornet, .222Rem, .223, 243Win and .22-250 are commonly used for fox control and are well within the limits required by the Act for the control of badgers. Deer managers use firearms of larger calibres and muzzle energies which would still be appropriate and effective against badgers". Please read this in context of the issue and bear in mind the date it was published. It may just be worth pointing out that this legislation was introduced in 1973 and the 1985 and 1992 amendments did not alter this aspect of the original legislation. I have to say that I'm afraid I don't quite understand what it is that you are saying; possibly me being dim. I just don't see the link between DSC which is a daylight orientated qualification and a night time operation with an entirely different quarry species. I am NOT saying that BASC is the source, but just asking under the circumstances, if. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 Lord knows what will happen here, all I know is I have farmers who have offered to pay for any course I have to attend to shoot their Badgers! Will there be regional courses or only courses in the Selected areas, how much will it cost, DSC is a stupid red herring if they make it a requirement, and what the **** takes 3 days on a training course to shoot a Badger, especially if you already have a DSC! About a clear as mud at the moment, and probably making less sense! No doubt a clever politician will make a momentous announcement in due course and the country will feel humbled by his vast knowledge of badgers and shooting! That is, if the Appeals process has not brought a stop to the whole thing yet again! From what I can gather the course is a sort of accuracy test plus how to handle shot and trapped badgers ( this cull is for shooting free roaming badgers and baited trapping) and so far early indications are its just a days course. A bunch of farmers in a high tb area need to get together so they have collectivly 150sq km. The farmers then set up a company that will employ the services of culling operatives, these will have to do the days course and be put forward by NFU or Defra but farmers can request their own if qualified to do so. The badger huggers are already gathering funds to take this to the highest of heights legality wise. Once the protests start, out will come the militants and Milwall supporters. If a bunch of travelling peg makers can find protection from the green heavy weights just imagine how much agro there will be at the badger protests. The farmers should have got together, imported a container full of Rodenators and blown the xxxxx out of the countryside, the government usually manages to completly cock things up, and the badger huggers will inflict more suffering to their little furry friends as the desperate farmers turn to poison and gas. It could have been so so simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) No it's not you being dim my friend certainly not. My quotation above was a direct extract for the reply the BASC made to the consultation paper in 2009. You'll find it on-line. One of my points of view was that you thought the BASC should'nt be involved with this issue? #37 I do not fully understand the in's and out's of culling Badgers. All I want to try and understand is more. At the moment I believe they need to be culled in numbers and the job needs to be done properly, quickly and by folk that do it to standard. I'm am very concerned about things that are done half cock and the damage that might be done by the storyteller press. The devil will be in the detail but we have a problem here.How bloody long is thing going to take? I would like the BASC to take a lead and sort it, but understand their nervousness. Perhaps someone from BASC could explain their stance? Edited December 16, 2011 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitebridges Posted December 16, 2011 Report Share Posted December 16, 2011 (edited) From what I can gather the course is a sort of accuracy test plus how to handle shot and trapped badgers ( this cull is for shooting free roaming badgers and baited trapping) and so far early indications are its just a days course. A bunch of farmers in a high tb area need to get together so they have collectivly 150sq km. The farmers then set up a company that will employ the services of culling operatives, these will have to do the days course and be put forward by NFU or Defra but farmers can request their own if qualified to do so. The badger huggers are already gathering funds to take this to the highest of heights legality wise. Once the protests start, out will come the militants and Milwall supporters. If a bunch of travelling peg makers can find protection from the green heavy weights just imagine how much agro there will be at the badger protests. The farmers should have got together, imported a container full of Rodenators and blown the xxxxx out of the countryside, the government usually manages to completly cock things up, and the badger huggers will inflict more suffering to their little furry friends as the desperate farmers turn to poison and gas. It could have been so so simple. #33 There is a lot in what you say Regum Edited December 16, 2011 by Whitebridges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Its going to require DSc 1 minimum as thats the only recognised qualification for centrefire rifles. They have linked in closer with deer shooters than people who fox. They have been looking far more to set up teams of outside contractors so they aren't local to give the antis a harder time with reprisals. The course is mostly on badger anatomy as its apparently a bit different to usual quarry. Thats come from a friend at one of the bigger chains of cattle vets who have been consulted a lot in the process, planning has been underway for ages Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Flippin' marvellous ain't it!? Anyone setting up a business does it for one reason and one reason only; profit. It will have a product whether it be bananas or financial advice. Farmers will now have to set up a business with all of the associated outgoings but with no income and therefore no profit because it has no product unless they can sell badger produce. No chance! They are going to run a loss making organisation to overcome a problem that is not of their making and which has reached the level it has due to continual prevarication by successive governments. Further financial pressure and a recipe for potential trouble ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Flippin' marvellous ain't it!? Anyone setting up a business does it for one reason and one reason only; profit. It will have a product whether it be bananas or financial advice. Farmers will now have to set up a business with all of the associated outgoings but with no income and therefore no profit because it has no product unless they can sell badger produce. No chance! They are going to run a loss making organisation to overcome a problem that is not of their making and which has reached the level it has due to continual prevarication by successive governments. Further financial pressure and a recipe for potential trouble ahead. they could sell: badger skin slippers badger skin rugs badger skin coat (for the discerning lady) shaving brushes (for the discerning gent) badger skin iPad covers (for the discerning teenager) the list is endless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 they could sell: badger skin slippers badger skin rugs badger skin coat (for the discerning lady) shaving brushes (for the discerning gent) badger skin iPad covers (for the discerning teenager) the list is endless. At my age, put me down for a willy warmer! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) Its going to require DSc 1 minimum as thats the only recognised qualification for centrefire rifles. They have linked in closer with deer shooters than people who fox. They have been looking far more to set up teams of outside contractors so they aren't local to give the antis a harder time with reprisals. The course is mostly on badger anatomy as its apparently a bit different to usual quarry. Thats come from a friend at one of the bigger chains of cattle vets who have been consulted a lot in the process, planning has been underway for ages Call me sceptical or a realist but......... Who knows, and what about qualified shooting Instructors and holders of the Shooter Certification Card, Deer Mentors with NO DSC but a lifetime of experience, Gamekeepers, etc, etc, they can't stop a badger hey? Lets be honest, many of them have been doing so quietly for years anyway, as DEFRAs previous Badger control requirements were draconian, it's all a load of BULL. There is no magic course that will train/qualify anyone to shoot badger, this will just be a flag waving, **** covering exercise which will achieve nothing and appease nobody! Hey Ho, so what's new!? Edited December 17, 2011 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ackley Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 (edited) I hear a suggestion that all those taking part will have to be licenced and have gone through a training program? Is this rumour or can anyone throw any light on this? And just who is qualified in this country to run a training program on culling badger, and what would it cover? you will probably have to be able to hit a 2 inch circle at 100 yards instead of the mandortory 4 inch circle for DSC level 1,so thats going to cause problems for a few on this site and as for a legal cull ,its pretty easy to sort out,just take the badger off the protected list and have a season on them,wont cost the goverment 1 penny,introduce a min caliber job done Edited December 17, 2011 by Ackley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artschool Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 I was out walking the dog last week. I stopped to relieve myself against a tree, when a gentleman from defra jumped out and requested to see my dsc1 as I was aiming from a range greater than 2ft. He said from next year it will be compulsory for all urination whilst standing up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Its going to require DSc 1 minimum as thats the only recognised qualification for centrefire rifles. They have linked in closer with deer shooters than people who fox. They have been looking far more to set up teams of outside contractors so they aren't local to give the antis a harder time with reprisals. The course is mostly on badger anatomy as its apparently a bit different to usual quarry. Thats come from a friend at one of the bigger chains of cattle vets who have been consulted a lot in the process, planning has been underway for ages Without going into our usual slaggin match of who's right and wrong Al4x The two lads that I know who have gone into it as far as it goes have said nothing has been mentioned about DSC1, so far anyhow but a one day test by either NFU or defra will be required.One lad already has DSC1 the other doesnt. I cannot see what relevants DSC1 has to culling badgers apart from the shooting and safety test maybe, think the NFU test is more like DSC2, proper grallock, inspection of lymphs for TB, butchering badger hams and basic knitting skills for those willy warmers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 Call me sceptical or a realist but......... Who knows, and what about qualified shooting Instructors and holders of the Shooter Certification Card, Deer Mentors with NO DSC but a lifetime of experience, Gamekeepers, etc, etc, they can't stop a badger hey? Lets be honest, many of them have been doing so quietly for years anyway, as DEFRAs previous Badger control requirements were draconian, it's all a load of BULL. There is no magic course that will train/qualify anyone to shoot badger, this will just be a flag waving, **** covering exercise which will achieve nothing and appease nobody! Hey Ho, so what's new!? Dsc has no input from a shooting perspective it is purely a nationally recogised shooting qualification and is mentioned to try and assure the public it has as much credibility as possible and is being done by experienced and qualified people. In reality its all bull poop anyone can kill a badger with a deer caliber but like anything this politically sensitive there is a paper trail to complete. It is unlikely to be bands of local shooters more groups of full time employees who hit an area hard. To achieve the aims of the cull then move onto another area. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crosshair Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 The cost of the cull has to be met by the farmers according to the farm forums, the cost, some of them claim is already prohibitive. Some sources say it will cost over £900.00 per badger culled. If the farmers say they cannot afford it then the government will say the cull is not going to work, leaving the government off the hook. As they have dithered for years, I don't think they really want it to go ahead. The backlash to a cull by the tree huggers is something our rulers don't want. The easy answer is take the badger off the protected list, the result will be more ground nesting birds etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redgum Posted December 17, 2011 Report Share Posted December 17, 2011 : and as for a legal cull ,its pretty easy to sort out,just take the badger off the protected list and have a season on them,wont cost the goverment 1 penny,introduce a min caliber job done Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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