Muntjac with 22cf`s....What bullet ?

[Ackley]

No you can't, not without Sectioning one anyway, the only difference is the jacket.

 

really so the hole in the nose isnt different then well news for you mate open a box and find out,the varmint bullets have a larger hole and thinner at the tip to aid expantion than the match bullets,Ive used them for years,what cant speak cant lie

but I suspose your going to say Iam wrong,like your story a 52 gr A max is made different to all other A max bullets

the jackets on a Berger is exaclty the same on ALL there bullets

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[Catweazle]

It's interesting that the licence makes all this fuss about marginally different heads yet says nothing about idiots marksmen who take 500yd shots at deer. I wonder if the so-called "correct" heads actually perform as well as the "target" heads at stupid extended ranges.

 

Can any experts shed any light on this ? Just curious.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Catweazle

[Dekers]

It's interesting that the licence makes all this fuss about marginally different heads yet says nothing about idiots marksmen who take 500yd shots at deer. I wonder if the so-called "correct" heads actually perform as well as the "target" heads at stupid extended ranges.

 

Can any experts shed any light on this ? Just curious.

 

 

This is a whole separate debate, and ALL ammo/calibres perform differently at different distances, and dependent on what it actually hits, ie quarry size and bone/soft flesh/feathers/etc!

 

 

As a matter of interest this is what happened to 2 x .308 150g SP when they went through a 9" tree trunk, circa 100yards, front and rear view, I can promise you they would have looked very different if they had simply gone through soft tissue of a rabbit at that distance! Both were complete when I recovered them, but somewhere along the line I lost the core for one as you can see!

 

ATB!

Edited December 29, 2011 by Dekers

[Mr_Logic]

really so the hole in the nose isnt different then well news for you mate open a box and find out,the varmint bullets have a larger hole and thinner at the tip to aid expantion than the match bullets,Ive used them for years,what cant speak cant lie

but I suspose your going to say Iam wrong,like your story a 52 gr A max is made different to all other A max bullets

the jackets on a Berger is exaclty the same on ALL there bullets

Let's be very clear. As I said before, the a-max has the same basic construction throughout. The 52 grain expands very differently to the 30 cal version, which leads to one conclusion - different relative jacket thickness.

 

Berger bullets - there is no difference to the exterior shape of the nose - if there were, the BC would be different. It's not.

 

See here: http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Lines%20and%20Designs.html

 

It's very clear - "the J4 precision jacket is thinner at the nose".

 

Also, why are we talking rapid expansion varmint bullets, clearly from a manufacturer offering proper deer bulllets we should choose these, lest we succumb to poor ethics and use the wrong bullet....

[huffhuff]

My girlfriend was leaning over my shoulder reading this. She said;

 

"...is that all you lot do on there, argue like girlies. What a waste of time..."

 

I agree. Surely it's time to lay this one to rest (although laborious, it has been an interesting read...at points). You're just going round in circles now though. It's clear there are 2 opinions. People can now decide on their own.

 

Come on chaps

 

Haaaaappy new year!

[Ackley]

Let's be very clear. As I said before, the a-max has the same basic construction throughout. The 52 grain expands very differently to the 30 cal version, which leads to one conclusion - different relative jacket thickness.

 

Berger bullets - there is no difference to the exterior shape of the nose - if there were, the BC would be different. It's not.

 

See here: http://www.bergerbullets.com/Information/Lines%20and%20Designs.html

 

It's very clear - "the J4 precision jacket is thinner at the nose".

 

Also, why are we talking rapid expansion varmint bullets, clearly from a manufacturer offering proper deer bulllets we should choose these, lest we succumb to poor ethics and use the wrong bullet....

of course a 52 gr a max will work differently than a 30 cal its totally different caliber and bullet size,so your statment there a different jacket is rubbish the A max is made the exactly the same throughout the caliber range

and as for your theroy on Bergers as i said open 2 boxes and take a look instead of making assumumtions,by the way take a longggggggggggg look at bergers website the BC is totally different to match and there varmint bullets hence the bigger hole in the nose,if you actually knew anyhting about berger bullets you would know that there varmint bullet where caledl MEF which stands for maximum expansion factor,theye were re packaged as varmint/match as they are made exactly the same as there match bullet except for the difference at the nose

quite simple really,but you would are black is white if i said anything,so bring something constructive to the table next time please or at least understand what your on about

a 52 gr 224 cal match grade FB target bullet has a BC of 242

a 52 gr 224 cal match grade FB varmint bullet has a BC of 197

Mmmmmmmmmm dont look the same BC to me,as I said do your homework before spouting rubbish

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[Ackley]

if anyone is thinking of using an A max on deer or Foxes I would suggest you read the bullet makers desciption of the bullet they have designed,made and tested and not just shot them at an animal hoping for the best

 

A-MAX® NOW featuring AMP bullet jackets!

 

Designed by match shooters for match shooters. With an ultra-low drag tip, our A-Max match bullets feature an aerodynamic secant ogive that delivers flat trajectories with excellent uniformity and concentricity. Find out more...

Rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration.

Recommended muzzle velocity range: 2000+ fps.

These bullets are not recommended for hunting.

 

the words"limited penetration" and "not reommended for hunting" kind of jumps out at you,

now anyone using these bullets can see plain and simple there not right and needs there head looking at or the FAC taken away to insist there the correct bullet to use on deer.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[Mr_Logic]

So Ackley, you post two posts together. One says you shouldn't use a bullet which expands quickly, the other talking about using one designed to expand quickly.

 

***, which is it? I accept your findings re. berger's varmint and target. Have a look at their hunting bullets though, which share the same BC.

 

Clearly, since we're talking DEER, and not rabbits, these are the bullets we should look at.

 

Given A-max and berger varmint bullets both expand very rapidly, they are surely worthy of direct comparison?

 

Oh, and as an aside, don't lecture me on understanding what I'm on about - I can at least comprehend English.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Mr_Logic

[Ackley]

So Ackley, you post two posts together. One says you shouldn't use a bullet which expands quickly, the other talking about using one designed to expand quickly.

 

***, which is it? I accept your findings re. berger's varmint and target. Have a look at their hunting bullets though, which share the same BC.

 

Clearly, since we're talking DEER, and not rabbits, these are the bullets we should look at.

 

Given A-max and berger varmint bullets both expand very rapidly, they are surely worthy of direct comparison?

 

Oh, and as an aside, don't lecture me on understanding what I'm on about - I can at least comprehend English.

 

Iam glad you now accept Iam right on the Bergers if i wasnt right on a subject I wouldnt go on about it.

Amax and Berger varmints are two totally differet bullet designs,one is target and the other is designed to expand hence section 5 expanding ammo

hornady cleary state on there web site the Amax isnt a bullet to be used on animals (you must have missed post 132) whilst Beger bullets clearly state there varming bullets are,I domnt know where your trying to go with this,are you just grasping at staws as you have been prooven wrong again,as its clear you dont do your homework on the said subject

Oh and where did I say "dont use a bullet that expand quickly"

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[silpig5]

134 posts after the question , has the op learnt anything ???

 

yes he has

 

when asking a cf question you are going to get lots of anal answers and he might aswell ask the question on thl foram .

 

jeez guys , we all shoot , we all have our faverites , share those favorites with others and keep all this macho bs for the pub .

 

dead is dead , gutted and skinned , simples .

[Mr_Logic]

Iam glad you now accept Iam right on the Bergers if i wasnt right on a subject I wouldnt go on about it.

Amax and Berger varmints are two totally differet bullet designs,one is target and the other is designed to expand hence section 5 expanding ammo

hornady cleary state on there web site the Amax isnt a bullet to be used on animals (you must have missed post 132) whilst Beger bullets clearly state there varming bullets are,I domnt know where your trying to go with this,are you just grasping at staws as you have been prooven wrong again,as its clear you dont do your homework on the said subject

Oh and where did I say "dont use a bullet that expand quickly"

You posted info from Hornady's web site, which says 'rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration'. Which is the same characteristic as a varmint bullet.

 

I give in, have a nice life in your Ackley-ised fantasy world. Me, I'm going shooting.

[Ackley]

134 posts after the question , has the op learnt anything ???

 

yes he has

 

when asking a cf question you are going to get lots of anal answers and he might aswell ask the question on thl foram .

 

jeez guys , we all shoot , we all have our faverites , share those favorites with others and keep all this macho bs for the pub .

 

dead is dead , gutted and skinned , simples .

yep dead is dead you cant argue with that,but as resposable FAC holders we are governed to do thing by the conditions on our FAC and have ethics whilst doing it.

I can go and shoot deer with a 22 rimmy,its will do the job and dead is dead as you say,but is it the right thing to do,just like using the incorrect bullet not designed for the job.

yes I hope the OP and many others have learnt a thing or two about whats right and what wrong with the facts thats been posted,nothing to do with being macho

[Ackley]

You posted info from Hornady's web site, which says 'rapid, explosive expansion with limited penetration'. Which is the same characteristic as a varmint bullet.

 

I give in, have a nice life in your Ackley-ised fantasy world. Me, I'm going shooting.

 

thats it mate you run and hide,I was waiting for an e mail to proove you wrong 3 times but I suspose twice will have to do,enjoy your shooting,hopefully using the right bullet combo

[silpig5]

yep dead is dead you cant argue with that,but as resposable FAC holders we are governed to do thing by the conditions on our FAC and have ethics whilst doing it.

I can go and shoot deer with a 22 rimmy,its will do the job and dead is dead as you say,but is it the right thing to do,just like using the incorrect bullet not designed for the job.

yes I hope the OP and many others have learnt a thing or two about whats right and what wrong with the facts thats been posted,nothing to do with being macho

ackley , now you are splitting hairs just for a arguement , because you ca see on the screen there is a browning on my list !!!

 

as others said , im not rising to your text book hollicks , i sugest you take time away from various websites and rule books and go do some off the cuff shooting . you may even enjoy it !!!!

[Ackley]

ackley , now you are splitting hairs just for a arguement , because you ca see on the screen there is a browning on my list !!!

 

as others said , im not rising to your text book hollicks , i sugest you take time away from various websites and rule books and go do some off the cuff shooting . you may even enjoy it !!!!

whats a browning got to do with anything or have i missed something,dead is dead isnt it no matter what I use.isnt that what you said

I dont see what your tryiong to get at "text book hollicks" and "off the cuff shooting" where talking bullets here.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[silpig5]

we where talking bullets now you are just talking out ya harris !

[Ackley]

we where talking bullets now you are just talking out ya harris !

well mateI dont seem to be able to find anything constructive posted by your good self.so who talking out of there harris now

[silpig5]

well mateI dont seem to be able to find anything constructive posted by your good self.so who talking out of there harris now

thats what pm is for , im sure a keyboard shooter like yaself knows that .

are you single by any chance ? lives with mother ??

[njc110381]

amen to that,apart from your commnet on a max

by the way what would you say is an unsuitable target bullet for deer

 

 

I wouldn't use anything of FMJ design obviously but sticking to facts and what I know from experience I can't comment on the other makers as I haven't used them and don't know anyone who does.

 

This all comes down to testing. Firing bullets into media that closely resembles flesh and then digging out the bullet to find the outcome. It doesn't matter what Hornady say - it does mushroom so works fine. Thousands of dead Deer across the world are less likely to be wrong than one bloke on a forum who doesn't agree with using it on live quarry.

 

I'm going to let this one die now as it seems most of us are in agreement with that. I think we've all had enough and it's been an interesting debate.

[Ackley]

thats what pm is for , im sure a keyboard shooter like yaself knows that .

are you single by any chance ? lives with mother ??

 

come on mate dont lower yourself with silly insults now,this a grown up forum.and to answer your qustion no I dont live with my mother no Iam not single been married 18 years now :o and Iam far far from a keyboard shooter having shot 7 different speices of deer in the Uk ( dont tell me there only 6) all manner of game birds more foxes and rabbits I can count and hunted all over the world,so I think that isnt a keyboard shooters as you put it.

PMs are for private conversations and not public adult debate.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[Ackley]

I wouldn't use anything of FMJ design obviously but sticking to facts and what I know from experience I can't comment on the other makers as I haven't used them and don't know anyone who does.

 

This all comes down to testing. Firing bullets into media that closely resembles flesh and then digging out the bullet to find the outcome. It doesn't matter what Hornady say - it does mushroom so works fine. Thousands of dead Deer across the world are less likely to be wrong than one bloke on a forum who doesn't agree with using it on live quarry.

 

I'm going to let this one die now as it seems most of us are in agreement with that. I think we've all had enough and it's been an interesting debate.

 

they use FMJ in Africa as it penerates deep into the heart,I saw a Giraffe shot with one on my last trip to Africa,

yes it does matter what hornady says,we all know the A max bullet will kill just like any other bullet will if hit in the right place,but my point is there not recomended and not designed to do that,just because you and a few others have used them dosent make it right.

theres more than me who dosent agree with using a match bullet on deer

BASC

BDS

Home Office

responsable FAC holders

to mention a few,anyway as I have said from the start,use what you want but dont tell others to do what is wrong espeically on an open forum as people will get the wrong idea,hopefully this thread would have made a few think about bullet choice in the future as it is important

happy and a safe new year to you all from the arm chair shooter :lol:

Edited December 29, 2011 by Ackley

[huffhuff]

Come on guys. Gentemans rules and all!

[al4x]

It is interesting with A max if they are designed to break up faster for target use as it would explain why they are about. Personally I can't see the point in them in the uk and the ******** that surrounds holding them as a target bullet rather than expanding. Whichever way I look at it why use them if they act like a vmax then I wouldn't use them on deer anyway. What the op needs is a decent soft point about 55 grains and it will do fine. They are small deer and tough but fall over fine with soft points. One thing I find amusing with this thread is one poster who seems to be making a cracking habit of using the wrong bullet for quarry in at least 3 different situations that I can remember despite long drawn out internet questions on every choice. Just shows how easy it is to mislead in interweb land. Or is it just little things like being able to get A max by mail order that makes people use them

[Vermincinerator]

Back to the OPs question, i use 55grn Berger varmint out of my 22-250 on munties and anything else i shoot with the 22-250.

Boiler room shots i have taken have been devastating no beast has ran more then 15yds before expiring.

 

Ian.

[weejohn]

105 AMAX rocks.

 

http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/idaho-bear-kelly-s

 

http://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/scrapbook/my-best-ever-buck-ernie-parsons

 

Even hornady have added pics of how affective the good old 6mm 105 AMAX is on deer,

and many other calibres.