BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I assume this Tom Roster bloke is American and has a vested interest in shooters using steel due to him selling plastic wads. coyotemaster , I assume is also American and the thousands of duck shooters over there outnumber the Brit's by who knows how many. Is not the good old USA one of the biggest polluting nations on earth? But we must not shoot lead shot! How much gasoline does your country use a year, hell fire you even invade other countries to control it. Come on guys, let's get things into perspective. Have a read on Shotgunworld about what the shooters in the USA think about Tom Roster. And let's have some genuine evidence, not hearsay on why lead shot should be banned in the U.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I take your point, no farmer has ever mentioned it to me either, but evidently others are in a different situation As I said and as was the point of the original post, it does not mater what you or I think, if the farmer says you cant shoot at night, or you cant use lead, or you cant shoot the rabbits, or you cant shoot over this bit of the farm, that’s up to them! Love to know which bits you find condescending; what you may or may not know is that Salopian and I know each other quite well, so some of the comments between the two of us have been 'banter' Is steel the best alternative? Depends how you define ‘best’ I suppose. Personally I think ALL the alternatives will kill pigeons, pheasants, rabbits, ducks and geese that I am likely to encounter. As I aid above, I am more interested in using the correct size of shot to ensure a clean kill within the effective range of the gun / cartridge combination I am using, be that lead or steel or indeed anything else. However, if I had to pay Bismuth or TMX prices for the 3-4000 cartridges a year I buy then that would be a problem for me. So if I had to I would go for the best price alternative which is steel. And frankly I suspect it’s the same for most isn’t it? Who could afford to go pigeon shooting with Bismuth? As I have said, lead shot and it’s environmental and food based impact is being assessed by the Lead Ammunition Group, no conclusions have been drawn as far as I know. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Blazer quote And let's have some genuine evidence, not hearsay on why lead shot should be banned in the U.K. A year ago we had the same debate that you were involved in and I put up loads of links of scientific papers on the effects of lead posioning on birds in this forum. Is your mind so set against steel that you did not bother to read them. Or is it that you do not want to read them in case you change your mind. Yes there a lot more wildfowlers in the USA and they have been using non toxic shot with great success for years. But what the hell has that got to do with US policy on oil ? Have you used modern steel shells , experimented with various after chokes and various shot sizes to form your anti steel opinions? Edited January 30, 2012 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Hello anser2, It's Blaser not Blazer by the way, all the evidence you posted last year was from other countries, not this one where we live. My comment on oil was due to the amount of lead which was added in fuel, the US uses more than any other country in the world, and the pollution that caused, and they still love their gas guzzling vehicles. It just annoys me a little bit when a yank starts telling us not to use lead shot, what's it got to do with him? This is the U.K. Did you look into the background on that Roster fellow on why he wants everyone to use steel? I have never shot a steel loaded cartridge in my life, why should I when lead does everything that I require. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coyotemaster Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sorry Blaser if the truth about steel annoys you, I am an American and post pictures to show I am not an armchair sportsman. Tom Roster is an American and does not sell shot shell wads, he was however smart enough to feel the wind of change on his neck and learn what he needed to in order to be effective with steel shot. The first writing I was exposed to from Roster was in 1976 and he was telling hunters in Sports Afield magazine how to make the best LEAD loads available, he is most assuredly not anti lead as he knows what it will do. I do not spout opinions or rhetoric I have listed sources from which I glean my knowledge and have told you exactly what works for me with steel. What you desire to shoot is your business, I don't care even a little bit what you do with the resource you have been blessed with. I have for over 30 years been patterning loads, lead and steel to find optimum chokes for given yardages with different shot charges. I would bet the farm you haven't bothered to pattern any of the killer lead loads you shoot and most likely are a mediocre shot at best. I talk the talk but I also can walk the walk. I assume you are just venting about lead in fuel as it has been out of our fuel for decades, I will disregard your comments about anything OTHER than what is germane to our subject as just frustration over not being equipped to respond with facts and figures. The info I posted is for shooters over there who will accept some guidance from someone that spends the majority of their time in the field. I do not post to offend anyone but I am afraid that for some ignorance truly is bliss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 BlaserF3 , Quote “I have never shot a steel loaded cartridge in my life, why should I when lead does everything that I require. “ If you have never shot steel then you are hardly qualified to comment on its effectivness. You may as well say you will not use cartridges in green cases because you do not like the colour. As for the links there were a couple of English papers and anyway if a lead pellet kills a duck in America it will kill one in the UK and to suggest it will not is just plain daft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 Sorry Blaser if the truth about steel annoys you, I am an American and post pictures to show I am not an armchair sportsman. Tom Roster is an American and does not sell shot shell wads, he was however smart enough to feel the wind of change on his neck and learn what he needed to in order to be effective with steel shot. The first writing I was exposed to from Roster was in 1976 and he was telling hunters in Sports Afield magazine how to make the best LEAD loads available, he is most assuredly not anti lead as he knows what it will do. I do not spout opinions or rhetoric I have listed sources from which I glean my knowledge and have told you exactly what works for me with steel. What you desire to shoot is your business, I don't care even a little bit what you do with the resource you have been blessed with. I have for over 30 years been patterning loads, lead and steel to find optimum chokes for given yardages with different shot charges. I would bet the farm you haven't bothered to pattern any of the killer lead loads you shoot and most likely are a mediocre shot at best. I talk the talk but I also can walk the walk. I assume you are just venting about lead in fuel as it has been out of our fuel for decades, I will disregard your comments about anything OTHER than what is germane to our subject as just frustration over not being equipped to respond with facts and figures. The info I posted is for shooters over there who will accept some guidance from someone that spends the majority of their time in the field. I do not post to offend anyone but I am afraid that for some ignorance truly is bliss. I don't shoot over farms, the original poster does, so I don't need to pattern my killer loads at all. I will repeat that there is no scientific evidence in the U.K. that lead shot needs to be banned, you can do what you want too but don't start telling me what I should do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowblind66 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 It doesn't matter so much if there are large amounts of lead in the soil, what does matter is if the lead is bio-available or not. Lead in its pure form is not that harmful, I'm sure we have all eaten the odd pellet or two! Lead only becomes dangerous if it reacts under certain environmental conditions to form the nastier compounds which are bio-available. So just because there is a load of lead in some soil isn't always that bad. It all depends on soil composition, pH etc as to whether there is a problem or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) BlaserF3 , Quote “I have never shot a steel loaded cartridge in my life, why should I when lead does everything that I require. “ If you have never shot steel then you are hardly qualified to comment on its effectivness. You may as well say you will not use cartridges in green cases because you do not like the colour. As for the links there were a couple of English papers and anyway if a lead pellet kills a duck in America it will kill one in the UK and to suggest it will not is just plain daft. I like red one's best ta very much , how many ducks have you killed without them suffering from lead poisoning, I assume that before steel you used lead, or is every shot with steel a clean kill? Why not just ban wild fowling,... or just ban semi auto's when wild fowling, then see how much steel shot you can fire into the sky and stay on your feet. Edited January 30, 2012 by BlaserF3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I have handled quite a few ducks suffering from lead poisoning caught while duck ringing. Many were killed and sent off for an autopsy and were later confirmed as suffering from lead poisoning. They would have died shortly anyway. As for proof of a problem , the WWT x rayed a number of ducks on the Ouse Washes several years ago as you would have known and found lead shot in their gizzards. As I have found while keeping wild duck if they pick up one pellet then a week to 10 days later they die of lead poisoning. So its wrong to say there is no problem in this country. Yes I used lead years in the past and I would agree that when steel was first in use it was pretty useless. A few years ago I hated steel , but today’s modern loads are a different story, they are very effective once you learn how to shoot the stuff. You do not seem to understand there is no need to ban wildfowling as long as non toxic shot is used. I have several old guns , but I saw the need to discard them if I wanted to continue the sport I love and for that reason I bought a S\A to handle the shells without excessive recoil. And I still use the old guns at times , but loaded with Bismuth or Tungstun. However if wildfowlers continued to use lead then without doubt in time the sport would be banned. Steel and other non toxic shot is the savour of the sport. And as its does a good job ( providing you use the right loads ) I for one am quite happy to use it and the kill to shots is very similar to the old days when I used to use lead. For some reason you just seem to hate the very idea of using steel , though the reason escapes me as if i remember right from your previous posts last year you do not shoot live game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 I notice that you use a semi to lesson the recoil when using steel, that is the whole point of my argument against steel shot. It's so inefficient compared to lead that the velocity and pressure has to increase just to try to reach the ballistics of a lead loaded cartridge. Can you actually physically fire a goose or duck steel load through a double barrel gun, or is there too much pain? I think it would be fairer just to ban wild fowling than to ban lead shot as there are many more clay shooters and game shooters than wildfowlers. Why should the minority affect the majority? Yes you are correct I do not shoot live creatures just clays, but if lead is banned then I would be forced to shoot a semi as I do not like excessive recoil. Do you not honestly that I am heartily sick of the banning brigade and what we as shooters have lost over the years. I find that bloke from BASC a bit odd he seems ready for a ban on lead, I'm glad they don't receive any money off me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salopian Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 If you Google this link it shows a very interesting Pie Chart http://www.nssf.org/share/PDF/BirdMortality.pdf Back to the original post. If a farmer refuses you permission to shoot over his land that is his right and very unfortunate for you. End of. But today I was Gameshooting with some very influential farmers who grow crops for Sainsbury, Waitrose, Tesco, McCains & McDonalds. None of them had a problem with Lead shot and had never had rejections of crops through Lead contamination. The crops include brocoli, courgettes, lettuce, cabbage and strawberries, bilberry & blueberry. The potato farmer said that he did know of metal contamination in potatoes but this is found during processing and is detected on the line by metal detectors, and causes minimal disruption at negligable cost during processing. During the after dinner conversation all agreed that lead contamination was being blown up out of all proportion by people who had issues with people shooting and felt that it was a backdoor action to get shooting disgraced and banned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 30, 2012 Report Share Posted January 30, 2012 A very interesting post Salopian, lets see if there are any more comments to follow from the pro steel shot brigade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowblind66 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 See my previuos post for why lead isnt that much of a problem (it can be ingested in its pure form without many problems in small amounts) Also lead isn't magnetic.... which is good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry P Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Blaser I think you'll find most wildfowlers do use no toxic,they are usually members of clubs that are strict on what can be used on the marsh,you quoted numbers of duck shot with lead in a earlier post, those duck had been taken from game dealers who had in all probability bought those ducks from game shoot, the very same game shooter you would happily sacrific wildfowling for, if you think for one second that getting rid of wildfowlers will end the lead issue you need to wake up. Lead will be banned, not because of fowlers or because BASC did not fight hard enough, but simply because the goverment will look good and careing for doing it,it will be banned not because of its pontetial threat to bird life but its tenuos link to possible harm to humans through the food chain. In the pie chart above,lead may only be a tiny percentage but that still equates to 20 million birds,now the americans are not going to suddenly knock down all their cities or stop the expanding population from taking up more habitat so banning lead was a quick way of saving 20 million birds a year. I am a wildfowler before the ban I used lead since the ban i've used steel because like the vast majority of fowlers I don't want to lose my shooting,I changed my gun because my sport ment enough to me to make the changes needed to continue. When lead is banned it will be your turn to make those decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Salopian, the graph shows ALL birds in the USA inland and wetland. Yes habitat loss is the major issue I am sure we would all accept that. Not many ducks and geese will be killed by cats, or buildings of course. By the nature of their feeding habits it will be wetland birds and some raptors that are most likely to be exposed to spent lead shot, and the chart you provided the link to shows that 20 Million of these birds die in the USA by lead injection, that’s almost 55,000 a DAY. And Blaser you seem to think this shows lead is not a problem in these habitats? I agree it’s the bioavailability of lead, or any heavy metal that is a problem and some organic metal compounds are highly toxic. As Anser2 said it can take just a small number of pellets ingested by a duck to cause severe illness or death. Remember these pellets are ingested with stones and ground up, so the surface area increases significantly, and thus the propensity to interact with organic matter and acids in the ducks digestive system also increases, leading to the uptake of transportable lead in the tissues of the duck. And back to the original point, if the landowners says no lead you have little choice but to comply, remember the NFU leaflet on lead on farmland… David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Blaser I think you'll find most wildfowlers do use no toxic,they are usually members of clubs that are strict on what can be used on the marsh,you quoted numbers of duck shot with lead in a earlier post, those duck had been taken from game dealers who had in all probability bought those ducks from game shoot, the very same game shooter you would happily sacrific wildfowling for, if you think for one second that getting rid of wildfowlers will end the lead issue you need to wake up. Lead will be banned, not because of fowlers or because BASC did not fight hard enough, but simply because the goverment will look good and careing for doing it,it will be banned not because of its pontetial threat to bird life but its tenuos link to possible harm to humans through the food chain. In the pie chart above,lead may only be a tiny percentage but that still equates to 20 million birds,now the americans are not going to suddenly knock down all their cities or stop the expanding population from taking up more habitat so banning lead was a quick way of saving 20 million birds a year. I am a wildfowler before the ban I used lead since the ban i've used steel because like the vast majority of fowlers I don't want to lose my shooting,I changed my gun because my sport ment enough to me to make the changes needed to continue. When lead is banned it will be your turn to make those decisions. Terry P, I used to enjoy shooting pistols, but they have now been banned to make Great Britain a safer place, but it hasn't. If you are honest there is really no "need" to go wild fowling, is there, as you can buy farmed birds. You say that you don't want to lose your shooting, neither do I. Many shooting disciplines will have to change, game shooters guns will become obsolete in many cases. The Government do not really want the public to have guns at all and after the two recent shootings I'm quite surprised that we still have them. I also believe that intensive farming and pesticides have killed more birds than lead shot poisoning ever has. When lead is banned I will pack clay shooting in, but a very sad part is that my air pistol will be obsolete too as that is only accurate with lead pellets. I am a lot wiser now and I know that we are being stitched up, without a genuine reason. Edited January 31, 2012 by BlaserF3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Salopian, the graph shows ALL birds in the USA inland and wetland. Yes habitat loss is the major issue I am sure we would all accept that. Not many ducks and geese will be killed by cats, or buildings of course. By the nature of their feeding habits it will be wetland birds and some raptors that are most likely to be exposed to spent lead shot, and the chart you provided the link to shows that 20 Million of these birds die in the USA by lead injection, that’s almost 55,000 a DAY. And Blaser you seem to think this shows lead is not a problem in these habitats? I agree it’s the bioavailability of lead, or any heavy metal that is a problem and some organic metal compounds are highly toxic. David I live in England not the USA, when are you going to show some genuine evidence about poisoning in this country instead of going on about a country which I have no interest in. How many human beings die every day due to starvation and you are bothered about some birds in a foreign country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Blaser, as you may or may not be aware the limits on lead in some countries comes from the sign up by many counties to AEWA - have a look on that web site for the history if you want to, but it gives good background. The UK signed up to the AEWA and the rest, as they say, is history. Habitats and species are similar hence the effects of habitat loss or lead deposition for example will be the same; why would they differ just because they are geographically separated if the environments were the same? To draw an analogy, back in 1957 Richard Doll discovered the irrefutable link between tobacco smoking and lung cancer, but all his research was done in the UK, would you even suggest that US smokers, or French smokers or Russian smokers should not have taken notice of this just because the research was from the UK? No of course not! As i have said several times there is on going investigation in the UK on the risks of lead shot to foods and the environment, see the LAG web site for details, but no conclusions have been drawn. However, we still have to comply with the terms of the AEWA David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
motty Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Terry P, I used to enjoy shooting pistols, but they have now been banned to make Great Britain a safer place, but it hasn't. If you are honest there is really no "need" to go wild fowling, is there, as you can buy farmed birds. You say that you don't want to lose your shooting, neither do I. Many shooting disciplines will have to change, game shooters guns will become obsolete in many cases. The Government do not really want the public to have guns at all and after the two recent shootings I'm quite surprised that we still have them. I also believe that intensive farming and pesticides have killed more birds than lead shot poisoning ever has. When lead is banned I will pack clay shooting in, but a very sad part is that my air pistol will be obsolete too as that is only accurate with lead pellets. I am a lot wiser now and I know that we are being stitched up, without a genuine reason. Your arguments are truly ridiculous! To say someone doesn't "need" to go wildfowling!! Then you clearly don't "need" to go clay shooting. There is no need to buy a semi for shooting clays with steel as most sporters etc can comfortably handle clay steel loads. I would be sad if lead ever gets banned, as i use it to good effect for most of my shooting. I use mostly steel on the foreshore and find it to be well up to the job. A GB sporting shooter told me on the marsh last year that some of the carts he uses kill better than lead in his opinion. Most people that have a problem with steel shot have never used it or are using the wrong shot size. A former steel hating friend of mine was on the marsh with me this season and was surprised when he took out a 45 yard wigeon as clean as a whistle with a Gamebore Mammoth 36gm 3. He now quite likes steel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaserF3 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Your arguments are truly ridiculous! To say someone doesn't "need" to go wildfowling!! Then you clearly don't "need" to go clay shooting. There is no need to buy a semi for shooting clays with steel as most sporters etc can comfortably handle clay steel loads. I would be sad if lead ever gets banned, as i use it to good effect for most of my shooting. I use mostly steel on the foreshore and find it to be well up to the job. A GB sporting shooter told me on the marsh last year that some of the carts he uses kill better than lead in his opinion. Most people that have a problem with steel shot have never used it or are using the wrong shot size. A former steel hating friend of mine was on the marsh with me this season and was surprised when he took out a 45 yard wigeon as clean as a whistle with a Gamebore Mammoth 36gm 3. He now quite likes steel. My comment about needing to go wild fowling is true, nobody needs to as food is affordable today. I don't really need to shoot clays but I enjoy it. A lot of O/U'S will handle steel shot, mine will but my body cannot take the recoil of firing maybe 100 steel loaded cartridges, can yours? I already have a semi as well for clays. To be honest I would not even dream about firing a 36gm load of steel, 32gms for clay shooting was banned years ago because of recoil related problems to shooters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 Total ******** crops have been grown at our local clay shoot for years with no problem, and yes they have been tested for lead content with no problems, 25 years of down the line so there must be hundreds of tones in the same place. Deershooter Just seen this thread Bywell shooting ground up by me is a CPSA premier ground and runs national and international competitions. As well as weekly practices they shoot over crops such as wheat/barley/corn can you imagine how many cartridges have been fired over the years :blink: he is having you on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaun4860 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I notice that you use a semi to lesson the recoil when using steel, that is the whole point of my argument against steel shot. It's so inefficient compared to lead that the velocity and pressure has to increase just to try to reach the ballistics of a lead loaded cartridge. Can you actually physically fire a goose or duck steel load through a double barrel gun, or is there too much pain? I think it would be fairer just to ban wild fowling than to ban lead shot as there are many more clay shooters and game shooters than wildfowlers. Why should the minority affect the majority? Yes you are correct I do not shoot live creatures just clays, but if lead is banned then I would be forced to shoot a semi as I do not like excessive recoil. Do you not honestly that I am heartily sick of the banning brigade and what we as shooters have lost over the years. I find that bloke from BASC a bit odd he seems ready for a ban on lead, I'm glad they don't receive any money off me. i have found when trying steel cartridges on clays that there is a lot less recoil? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anser2 Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Blaser the same argument could be used to say there is no need to shoot targets or clays. I know several guys who shoot clays with steel quite successfully. When shooting such targets its easy to make sure they are kept within range of the lighter steel loads. So it could also be argued that as far as ballistics go there is no need to use lead for shooting targets. A light load of steel will do the job. As for buying duck instead of shooting wildfowl. Domestic waterfowl have a completely different taste and fat content to wild ducks or geese. Tame duck or goose is a very greasy meat and in cooking has the be “ pricked “ to get the grease out of the meat. Wild birds have very little if any far and fat needs to be added to the meat. Wild duck\ goose is some of the most healthy meat you can eat unlike domestic waterfowl. Just because you do not live in the US makes no difference to the results over here . A UK mallard is just as much at risk from lead as a US one. Ant to say you are not bothered about birds dieing in another country shows a rather daft outlook on life. The majority of wildfowl we get in winter in this country come from foreign countries including a few , ie , Atlantic Brents , from America. As you already have a semi auto I cant see your problem. The recoil I get from my semi auto is a lot less than the recoil of some lead shells in a side by side. Selfish stick in the mud attitudes will be the death knoll of shooting unless we adapt and change with public opinion. Edited January 31, 2012 by anser2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted January 31, 2012 Report Share Posted January 31, 2012 I don't believe the public has an opinion regarding lead shot, but they can be scared by hysterical biased reporting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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