rab3210 Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 Hy can enybody give me some advice please i have an 18 month old cocker spaneal he is very abedeant walks to heal picks up and hunts very well no problems in the field except when we arrive at the farm.Let him out of the landy if he is not on the lead hes gone runs of about 2to3 hundred yards call him on the whistle he returns then he will run of again i cant seem to get him out of the habbit can anybody give me some advice please of how to break him of this habbit thanks...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom&Dexter Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 If he is no problem in the field walks at heel hunts and retrives very well is the answer not as you say stick him on the lead when you arrive ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eccles Posted March 3, 2012 Report Share Posted March 3, 2012 What part of the day does he decide to walk to heel. If he's running away every time he comes back. Stick it on the lead, does it not stop on the whistle either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted March 4, 2012 Report Share Posted March 4, 2012 I think you need to train him on not jumping out of vehicle when you open the door. This firstly will allow you to put on the lead and control him until he calms and secondly is for his safety as i recently saw a gundog run over because he dived out of a car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arwen3513 Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 pop the lead on, and give him permission to leave the car, then if you do want him to have a blast before working walk him to an area he will be allowed to run in and empty, without ruining any drives then recall him in to start days work jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted March 5, 2012 Report Share Posted March 5, 2012 I think you need to train him on not jumping out of vehicle when you open the door. This firstly will allow you to put on the lead and control him until he calms and secondly is for his safety as i recently saw a gundog run over because he dived out of a car. Agree, i am very big on this one! Before i take a dog out shooting i expect it to stay in the car with the door open till called and train for it leaving them in the boot with the hatch open while i work in the garden. Many think they should leave the car only on command then automatic sit on the spot they land- i would do this if i shot more formal locations or busy ones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rab3210 Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Thank you for all your comments sorry for long delay in replying as i am new to this site still feeling my way around Any way thanks again now puyyijng your suggestions into practise and as you say he is now staying in back off landy while door is open when out dont run off so far thanks for all your advice Chris (rab3210)......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arwen3513 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 it is a habit you have allowed him to do and now he thinks this is how to behave. change your normal behavour such as don't allow him out till commanded as suggested above, and he will break this habit of running about on arrival. jan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donnie Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Just remember that dogs need to relieve themselves normally when getting to where ever you are going. I normally call mine out of the car or put thr lead on him and call him out. Then a short heel on or off the lead, sit thrn "go on" to let him do what he needs to do. The important bit is for you to stay in the same spot then once hes done call him back to you to start your session or walk. If you find he wont come back stand there throwing a dummy in your hands or sometimes i used to let off a blank from a pistol. Mine soon learnt being with me was more fun than sniffing about. Over the last year ive built this routine up so when in middle of walk or training i can say go on and off he runs. it gives mr a chance to hide dummies, put the stop whistle on him or direct recall even when hr is distracted by something but this takes time, nerve and situations you cant always plan like bolting rabbits (20 of them) or flushing a partridge in the middle of a field where i have never seen one. He failed both times but was brought back to the same spot and the lesson was enforced. Now when a bunny bolts he stops and looks at me for the next command it will all come together i am sure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Outlander Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Try to block his exit route and get the lead on asap he will soon get it. Outlander Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) I would simply go back to basics, as the dog clearly does not know that the stop whistles means STOP! The dog should know when you blow stop its has to stop or else. How can you move on to teaching a dog left and right, dropping to shot or to a flush if you cant drop it on command. The stop command is the most important of all the commands. Edited June 24, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 I would simply go back to basics, as the dog clearly does not know that the stop whistles means STOP! The dog should know when you blow stop its has to stop or else. How can you move on to teaching a dog left and right, dropping to shot or to a flush if you cant drop it on command. The stop command is the most important of all the commands. I get your point, though being padantic i should say recall is the most important command as its no point stopping them if they still wont come back. you can certainly teach direction in the way of a "sit stay" and taking a line without stop. Certainly teaching "stop" on a threat of anything is not proven as effective for me as the possible promise of something. once you get the dog "out in the country" they know you can't catch them anyhow, but that dont mean you cant help them Although i view stop as an essential command i estimate more than 1/3 of everyday shooting dogs that thier owners are quite happy with are not better than 50-50 on the stop at all audible distances but they will all recall. Bog off dogs are all about recall IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) I get your point, though being padantic i should say recall is the most important command as its no point stopping them if they still wont come back. you can certainly teach direction in the way of a "sit stay" and taking a line without stop. Certainly teaching "stop" on a threat of anything is not proven as effective for me as the possible promise of something. once you get the dog "out in the country" they know you can't catch them anyhow, but that dont mean you cant help them Although i view stop as an essential command i estimate more than 1/3 of everyday shooting dogs that thier owners are quite happy with are not better than 50-50 on the stop at all audible distances but they will all recall. Bog off dogs are all about recall IMO Whenever I teach a pup, and I have done a few. when they know what stop mean I always stop them before doing the recall in the field. This helps when teaching a dog to drop to shot or to the flush. As for teaching a dog left, right, and get back it would be a real problem if your dog ran off every time you threw a dummy. Also if you rely on the recall the dog could carry on running in an arch as very often they do, before coming back and end up chasseing game or under a car. So I stand by what I say as I think stop is the most important command. When I say or else: I mean if that dog moves after I have asked it to stop it is taken back to the spot I asked it to stay and pushed to the ground and maybe a shake. The stop command is the only command you can really enforce. If the dog tries to be cleaver I use a long drag line. All tried and tested ways of training a dog over many years, and not by just me. There is Little point in sending one of my Labs or springer out a 100 yards for a blind and it wont stop for me to send it left or right I dont want an everyday shooting dogs, I want a top shooting Dog/Dogs but each to their own, what ever works for you. Edited June 24, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Whenever I teach a pup, and I have done a few. when they know what stop mean I always stop them before doing the recall in the field. This helps when teaching a dog to drop to shot or to the flush. As for teaching a dog left, right, and get back it would be a real problem if your dog ran off every time you threw a dummy. Also if you rely on the recall the dog could carry on running in an arch as very often they do, before coming back and end up chasseing game or under a car. So I stand by what I say as I think stop is the most important command. When I say or else: I mean if that dog moves after I have asked it to stop it is taken back to the spot I asked it to stay and pushed to the ground and maybe a shake. The stop command is the only command you can really enforce. If the dog tries to be cleaver I use a long drag line. All tried and tested ways of training a dog over many years, and not by just me. There is Little point in sending one of my Labs or springer out a 100 yards for a blind and it wont stop for me to send it left or right I dont want an everyday shooting dogs, I want a top shooting Dog/Dogs but each to their own, what ever works for you. I do actually think stop is very, very important i just 100% totally dispute it takes top spot over recall, thats just crazy talk. Top shooting dogs? or top Test / trial dogs? I have shot with some great shooting dogs over the years that hardly ever got a command from thier owners and have made the mistake myself of once producing a dog that needed too much direction- whats the point in guiding your dog to the very spot if i was that good at finding game i shouldn't bother with a dog at all Looks good, wins points and has its uses in the field but so does natural gamefinding skill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) I do actually think stop is very, very important i just 100% totally dispute it takes top spot over recall, thats just crazy talk. Top shooting dogs? or top Test / trial dogs? I have shot with some great shooting dogs over the years that hardly ever got a command from thier owners and have made the mistake myself of once producing a dog that needed too much direction- whats the point in guiding your dog to the very spot if i was that good at finding game i shouldn't bother with a dog at all Looks good, wins points and has its uses in the field but so does natural gamefinding skill "hardly ever got a command from thier owners" but will stop when asked i would bet so you have never needed to guid a dog down wind to a blind. the best gamefinding dogs need direction when working with a back wind. sorry some of what you say makes sense and as you say top shooting dogs need very few commands. I hunted Hounds for many years and some of the best days were when you took hounds to a meet and took them home and did very little in-between. However dogs must be basically trained and stop command is basic command. A dog that does not stop on command is useless no matter what breed. my dog/ dogs work for them self, but if they need direction they listen to me. not going to agree on this one but stop is one of the basic command and I think all will agree is a must Edited June 24, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 "hardly ever got a command from thier owners" but will stop when asked i would bet so you have never needed to guid a dog down wind to a blind. the best gamefinding dogs need direction when work with a back wind. sorry some of what you say makes sense but a dog that does not stop on command is useless. my dog/ dogs work for them self, but if they need direction they listen to me. not going to agree on this on but stop is one of the basic command and I think all will agree is a must No some wouldn't know what the heck thier owners were onto if they blew stop far from useless though Usefull is as usefull does, aint worth a jot if they cant do AND cant be handled though i give respect due to those that produce the goods in the field. someone said to me a dog needs three things stay quietly and patiently in the hide, fetch when asked and come back when called after that its all about experiance. They wont win nothing like that but they are non the less usefull Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) No some wouldn't know what the heck thier owners were onto if they blew stop far from useless though Usefull is as usefull does, aint worth a jot if they cant do AND cant be handled though i give respect due to those that produce the goods in the field. someone said to me a dog needs three things stay quietly and patiently in the hide, fetch when asked and come back when called after that its all about experiance. They wont win nothing like that but they are non the less usefull You say :“dog needs three things stay quietly and patiently in the hide, fetch when asked and come back when called” stay quietly: well stay is STOP. fetch when asked: that is STOP untill told to move come back when called,: and that’s the last thing. I myself and a lot of top trainers I know start the STOP at 4 months old by gently asking the pup to sit before allowing it to feed. Cant imagen how you can train a dog to do anything without the STOP. So please do tell me, as I and lots of others will be very interested to know how YOU go about teaching a dog the bacis : drop to flush, drop to shot, left and right, come back, without first teaching STOP. The come back I admit can be done when it is a pup by walking the other way and blowing return, but as for the others I would love to know Even the dog that develop into the best gamefinding dogs need bacic training when young, STOP is bacis If you can do all this without teaching a dog to STOP, well I must have been doing it wrong for over 40+ years STOP, sit, stay, get up, what ever you want to call it is a basic command of any breed and is a must A half trained dog is just that, half trained; a trained dog is a pleasure to be with and to work with Edited June 27, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) You say :“dog needs three things stay quietly and patiently in the hide, fetch when asked and come back when called” stay quietly: well stay is STOP. fetch when asked: that is STOP untill told to move come back when called,: and that’s the last thing. I myself and a lot of top trainers I know start the STOP at 4 months old by gently asking the pup to sit before allowing it to feed. Cant imagen how you can train a dog to do anything without the STOP. So please do tell me, as I and lots of others will be very interested to know how YOU go about teaching a dog the bacis : drop to flush, drop to shot, left and right, come back, without first teaching STOP. The come back I admit can be done when it is a pup by walking the other way and blowing return, but as for the others I would love to know Even the dog that develop into the best gamefinding dogs need bacic training when young, STOP is bacis If you can do all this without teaching a dog to STOP, well I must have been doing it wrong for over 40+ years STOP, sit, stay, get up, what ever you want to call it is a basic command of any breed and is a must A half trained dog is just that, half trained; a trained dog is a pleasure to be with and to work with I think there is some misunderstanding in what you and i call stop. to me it is always out at distance and only applies to drop to flush and shot in the examples you list (neither of which i should want in a retriever) Back , left and right are done from a sitting and staying initially (not what i should call stop). later progressing to a "stop" can you "stop" your dog at 200 yds if it will sit stay while you walk 200yds away- not from that action you cant IMO A dog that wont "sit, stay" with or without using the second word is useless in the field. but it aint stopping in my opinion. "stop" is for stopping for redirect commanded from a distance. my dogs must do it but that isnt to say all everyday gundogs do it because the basic fact is they dont or wont. Still stopping is useless without recall- MY POINT Edited June 27, 2012 by kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millomite Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Stop, to me, is a very different command to sit/stay. Stop whistle means stop what you're doing, look at me, I want you to do this/stop because a bird has flown. Sit/stay means sit there until I tell you to move Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pontbeck Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Stop means just that STOP, don`t do anything until I give you a command. Sit and stay are irrelevant if I have told you to stop you sit and stay until commanded otherwise. To me stop is the most important command, if the dog will stop on the whistle all other commands come from that. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Bear Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Stop is one I'm struggling with at the moment. My dog will sit & stay whilst I walk 200-300 yards away. He will sit every time when he is at heel. However if I give the command when he's away from me he always recalls and sits. I always take him back to the spot I gave the command and sit him. Any more tips? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) To answer the above questions:When you first start to train a pup to the whistle you blow sit/stop it’s the same command You would use the same stop whistle for sit and stop. Sit is the same, stop is more advance and at a distance but its the same command. You cannot move onto stopping at distances until you have got your dog stopping sitting close up. Which is what I was saying when I said the guy should go back to basics and get his dog stopping: sitting on command. Really cant see the confusion stop mean stop, next to me or a 100 yards away I agree with Pontblack that stop is the most important command. You can get your dog out of all kinds of problems when training if you can stop it and get its attention and refocus it Kent can you "stop" your dog at 200 yds if it will sit stay while you walk 200yds away- not from that action you cant IMO Cant understand the question sorry. I can stop my Dog/Dogs at any distance, I can also blow the stop and they will sit and stay even if I walk out of sight. I am willing to prove this if you like Edited June 27, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 To answer the above questions:When you first start to train a pup to the whistle you blow sit/stop it’s the same command You would use the same stop whistle for sit and stop. Sit is the same, stop is more advance and at a distance but its the same command. You cannot move onto stopping at distances until you have got your dog stopping sitting close up. Which is what I was saying when I said the guy should go back to basics and get his dog stopping: sitting on command. Really cant see the confusion stop mean stop, next to me or a 100 yards away I agree with Pontblack that stop is the most important command. You can get your dog out of all kinds of problems when training if you can stop it and get its attention and refocus it Kent can you "stop" your dog at 200 yds if it will sit stay while you walk 200yds away- not from that action you cant IMO Cant understand the question sorry. I can stop my Dog/Dogs at any distance, I can also blow the stop and they will sit and stay even if I walk out of sight. I am willing to prove this if you like The question is a general one not a direct one towards your dogs. A retriever is often expected mearly to stop and look for further direction there is effectively no sit (though many wish for and train for the sit). does this illustrate the point better i am making better? you might view stop the same at short and long range but i dont think the dogs agree, if they did then this comming back to the owner to sit would not be the regular "stop" training issue it is for many. there is actually nothing to "prove" here. A finished dog should "stop" within all audible ranges (in reality all have a limit before that point, depending on motivation) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 Stop is one I'm struggling with at the moment. My dog will sit & stay whilst I walk 200-300 yards away. He will sit every time when he is at heel. However if I give the command when he's away from me he always recalls and sits. I always take him back to the spot I gave the command and sit him. Any more tips? In the dogs mind the two commands are different- SOME PEOPLE SEEM TO DISAGREE WITH THIS, though to my thinking this is a direct example of my own thoughts. get between his kennel and his meal with the dog in a sit stay as he takes the first few paces after recall towards you blow the stop, give the hand signal and verbal command also if it helps (take it back to the exact spot if it fails, however many tries it takes). All dogs have different motivations and understandings to a greater or lesser degree I PERSONALLY FEEL. a trailing light check might proove usefull. If you believe any training around food is wrong recall him towards home following a walk and try the above- not going away from home Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Actionpigeons Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) The question is a general one not a direct one towards your dogs. A retriever is often expected mearly to stop and look for further direction there is effectively no sit (though many wish for and train for the sit). does this illustrate the point better i am making better? you might view stop the same at short and long range but i dont think the dogs agree, if they did then this comming back to the owner to sit would not be the regular "stop" training issue it is for many. there is actually nothing to "prove" here. A finished dog should "stop" within all audible ranges (in reality all have a limit before that point, depending on motivation) “A finished dog should "stop" within all audible ranges” is this a change of heart The point I am trying to make is: At what point do you think the sit becomes a stop. 10 yards, 20 yards, 40yards, 80 yards The stop at distance is the same as stop up close, it is the same command. The only difference is that as the dogs training advances we allow the dog to stand and look at us waiting for a command rather than sit. That is why in my first post I said take the dog back to basics stopping up close and enforcing the stop, then slowly working the dog until it will stop at distance. Edited June 27, 2012 by Actionpigeons Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.