bedwards1966 Posted March 26, 2012 Report Share Posted March 26, 2012 Although it may be a very sensible idea to contact schools regarding applications, they certainly should not refuse to grant applications as a standard practice. That is just them making up their own rules and pushing things a little bit far and is not acceptable - like all the forces do in one way or another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Logic Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 aged 14 you cannot have anything on your FAC anyway, but you can use your fathers/landowners/family members ect if you have a FAC on private land. That's inaccurate, you can have a rifle in there but it has to be gifted to you, same with ammunition. In practice it means a parent needs to buy ammo and rifle, but once bought off you toddle. No need to be supervised, you can take a rifle with you in public subject to usual restrictions so there is nothing stopping you enjoying your shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 The issue is that the Police, again, have altered statutory licensing Process without being held to account. The process is laid down in law and must be followed. Personally, I think it's a good idea but needs to have the process established and enshrined in law for relative clarity. You omit to say that the guide to which you refer is not LAW as such, it is the musings of a self-appointed cartel of senior police officers (ACPO), who seem to think they MAKE law. They do not make law, they are officers of the law sworn to uphold the law, as made by Parliament. ACPO happens to be a private limited company funded in part by police forces selling DVLA information to private businesses so that they can snoop on you and collect parking "fines", as well as grants of public money. They recently blew over £1m of this money on an annual "conference". They remain a private limited company which puts them beyond the reach of public accountability and the freedom of information act. They are vehemently opposed to the introduction of elected and accountable police commissioners. Naturally as they will have the power to remove them from their fiefdoms. In my view, and that of BASC is that Firearms Licensing should be independent of the police. More on ACPO The above sums it up for me; particularly if you lump "occupier" into the debate. If it's generally agreed among all to be beneficial, then the point should be ratified by law. If it's not then it must not be permitted. The one problem, as ever, is the baby/bathwater syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillaroo Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 Additionally, it is also a massive potential security problem. Potentially, all the teachers at the school may now know that there will be, or already are, firearms at a persons house. Jonathan What makes you think that it is a "massive potential security problem" if teachers and classmates know that the kid enjoys going shooting at weekends and in doing so, probably has access to a shotgun/firearm? So what? Let the person decide for themselves if they want to sign the school form, let them stand up in class and tell everyone what a good safe sport we have, let them teach the rest of the class how to draw a bird or skin a rabbit and most of all let them be proud of our sport. Hopefully it would lead to a few more taking it up and if that means letters/forms to school for references then great. Why should we hide what we do when we should be waving the flag a bit more? Your cameras in every room in our houses comment is taking this way too far - a school reference (which is all this is) is hardly an invasion of privacy is it? As I said before, I'm on good terms with police down here and if they asked me to give them a bell when I'm lamping to save them a trip out then I'll do it no problem - they've enough on their plate round here believe me!! Same applies to the request for reference from my lad's school. The school were actually a bit shocked at first as they'd never had to do it but are always interested in hearing how his shooting is going and are more than happy to get the odd brace around Christmas. Gillaroo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 (edited) It's no more of a security risk than taking your guns out to the car and someone seeing you. Children need to be taught that there is more to shooting than Call of Duty, it would have great benefits for their health being out and about rather than be behind a TV and they would learn loads about nature. Sadly with the way the ex Government slid their anti shooting agenda into the curriculum I think that is unlikely to happen. As the common saying goes, Guns don't kill people, people do. Edited March 27, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OddJob Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 I can assure you that schools have a lot more pressing matters to be worrying about what is in effect a reference. We also have access to a lot more information than you realise, because have to for the welfare of students, not some big brother style power trip. This is just one student out an entire year. I provided people who would act as a referee for me for my certificate application, this is all the school is doing. It is not privacy, it is for the safety of this country, and hence it is not just a private matter. I would have thought you would be happy that some loaded reference given by a friend of the family was not accepted, but a rational, honest view was given when granting someone a licence for a firearm that can kill. If you are worried about what the school might say, ask to see the head of year first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 This is what goes on in schools visited by "animal welfare charities". Here. So, are you still in favour of some teachers being given a veto on shotgun licensing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 This is what goes on in schools visited by "animal welfare charities". Here. So, are you still in favour of some teachers being given a veto on shotgun licensing? Seems to me that there's too many letters 'S' in your nom de plume, mate. You wouldn't care to swap one for a 'T', would you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cant hit rabbits 123 Posted March 27, 2012 Report Share Posted March 27, 2012 When I applied for my SGC, I was still in my uniform days at schhol, having moved up to A levels since. My school was never contacted, and I am glad. There are plenty of staff who have access to students addresses. All they have to do is request it for any number of reasons, same with contact detials. There are also plenty of staff who regulalrly hold grudges against students, very unproffessional I know, and I wouldn't put it past them to intervene with an FAC or SGC application if they didn't like the applicant student. There are also one or two who I would be uncomfortable with them knowing both my address and my ownership of firearms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR1960 Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Well, i'd be totally against it I'm afraid. Even in the rural area in which we live kids are regularly taught anti-countryside/bunny hugging doctrine. On a personal note, i'd trust my lad with a gun as much as anyone I know, and a lot more than most, but his head of year is a prize ****. I know I've met him, and because my son won't just accept the abuse that comes his way he has a vendetta against him, even though all the other teachers think he's a great lad and the sun shines out of his proverbial. I assume all those that think its a great idea will be happy for them to come and ask your boss to see if you're 'suitable'?? Fine if you get on, but i suspect one or two would have a few problems........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Does seem a bit odd unless the nominated referee is the school or member of staff at the school.....I'm not sure i am against it but I don't see why it is required in addition to the legal requirements? I can see how finding a none family member referee who has had sufficient contact with a child to act as a referee could be tricky and that a teacher who has daily contact would be suitable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_No Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Personally - I didn't shoot in school but was interested in country sports (I live in a small village, school was in nearest town) and during discussions on the Hunting Ban (which was being hammered through at the time) rural access (right to roam, access to water ways etc.) it was clear that more than a handful of the teachers were anti-field sports and encouraged my fellow pupils to take on their views. More than once, (as a verbose and strong minded 15-16 year old) I was the sole voice arguing for field sports and pest control and against the hunting ban. That includes in many cases the class teacher. HAD I applied for my SGC at the time, I would have been horrified to think that any of those teachers would have been asked for their opinion and even if it wasnt given to an out and out anti, a careless "Oh I've been asked to sign this for Joe Bloggs" in the staff room and those anti staff could have been ear-bending like a parliamentary lobbyist! I see no reason why you shouldn't ask a particular teacher to countersign for a child but that is your call to make based on the attitude of the teacher and their relationship with the child. I do not think it is right that the Police should insist that the school is involved. Knowing a few teachers/teaching assistants both primary and secondary, they really do gossip about the kids they teach! Just my pennyworth, D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Green Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 You have to remember that when the ban on pistols was being discussed a petition was handed in to No 10 with a very large number of signatures on it. Many were school children, some so young they could barely write their names. Teachers had taken the petition sheets into schools and gone through every kid in the place class by class. Teachers anti gun? who would have thought it. It was sytematic and organised by someone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Let the person decide for themselves Well, yes, that's what I'm saying. A person 'deciding for themselves' is inconsistent with being required to sign away their privacy though. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted March 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 It's no more of a security risk than taking your guns out to the car and someone seeing you. It's a totally different (and I would say greater) security risk in that it is entirely avoidable. Taking your guns, in a gun case, from your car to your house is just something which happens in the normal course of their use and which is pretty much unavoidable. You are not attempting to publicise the fact that you have them. There is absolutely no reason at all as to why a childs' school should be informed of the fact that the child is applying for a certificate. There is no actual need as to why they do so why publicise the fact? Again, to repeat my self, it is a private matter and people have the right for it to be kept private if they so wish. If you are happy for the police to make such enquiries then that isn't a problem. However, a lot of people won't be (I have discussed this with several people and they have been utterly shocked by it) and should not be forced into it - especially as there is no basis in law to require them to do so. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 Tis a rocky road next they will want employers input and next door neighbours........ Oh wait that's already been suggested along with ex partners.... None of this aids public safety and one could argue lessens it! There have been zero reported incidents of certificate holders under 18 and sect 1/2 firearms 0! Statistically the safest group! Why? Perhaps because they can't buy them or ammunition? Or use unsupervised under 15? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greymaster Posted March 28, 2012 Report Share Posted March 28, 2012 I wonder what the teachers of these jerks would have written: Three elite police marksmen demoted over posed photograph. Here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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