WWT Lead Shot Plans

[poontang]

There's nothing anti BASC about it.

 

I'm well aware that the Countryside Alliance and NARGC are also members of FACE.

 

I'm also well aware that Richard Potts of the GWCT is a member of the CIC, and that the GTA are affiliated to the WFSA.

 

The fact is David is the only one who sticks his head above the parapet and represents his organisation. That is to his and his organisations credit.

 

I have serious concerns about the whole issue and am asking questions, which as a member I'm entitled to do. If that makes me a BASCurbator in your eyes Mudpatten then fine, I shan't lose any sleep over it, but I don't feel the need to abuse others simply for disagreeing with my views.

[David BASC]

Poontang,

 

Ok, I will accept that there is some evidence, but what we dont know yet is exactly the best way forward to counter some of the points especially about lead in food for example, hence LAG research into the real risks and the proposed ways of managing those risks.

 

Yes I agree balance is vital, I think we have it right at BASC!

 

And finally Poontang, I dont think you are anti BASC at all!

 

David

Edited June 11, 2012 by David BASC

[Salopian]

" BASC is unambiguously committed to defending lead shot unless UK-based, peer-reviewed published research demonstrates that it causes significant damage to human health and the environment. This is what is meant by BASC’s stated policy “BASC will continue to oppose any unwarranted restrictions on lead shot use. Restrictions must be science-based and proportionate. Debates about possible restrictions must fully involve shooting interests."

 

Robert Irvine

On behalf of BASC Council

 

Perhaps Dr. Conor O'Gorman should be informed?

[gunsmoke]

" BASC is unambiguously committed to defending lead shot unless UK-based, peer-reviewed published research demonstrates that it causes significant damage to human health and the environment. This is what is meant by BASC’s stated policy “BASC will continue to oppose any unwarranted restrictions on lead shot use. Restrictions must be science-based and proportionate. Debates about possible restrictions must fully involve shooting interests."

 

Robert Irvine

On behalf of BASC Council

 

Perhaps Dr. Conor O'Gorman should be informed?

 

Great I can sign up to this. These might be the words used but I would like to see this in action.

[RossEM]

Hi Al4x, the two foxes I shot were called in and shot at no more than 20 yards. I wouldn't raise a shotgun at more than that, either with lead or NTX in any shot size. Just personal preference. But I assure you they were cleanly killed.

[RossEM]

Again I used Gamebore steel 4's. To be honest I haven't noticed a real difference with damage to carcasses, I'll look more closely in future though

[fruitloop]

i for one dont like steel. so when are the cartrige makers going to do some d&r and find something that works as good as lead . as in size for size and cost but it seems to me that all they are doing is trying to convince us that steel is the only answer

Edited June 11, 2012 by fruitloop

[utectok]

Problem for me is cheap steel has plastic wads which the cattle munch

[fruitloop]

Don't all steel have plastic wads

[RossEM]

Some do, some don't. Check the manufacturer's websites. Gamebore have a 'fibre shot cup.'

[poontang]

Poontang,

 

Ok, I will accept that there is some evidence, but what we don’t know yet is exactly the best way forward to counter some of the points especially about lead in food for example, hence LAG research into the real risks and the proposed ways of managing those risks.

 

Yes I agree balance is vital, I think we have it right at BASC!

 

And finally Poontang, I don’t think you are anti BASC at all!

 

David

 

Morning David.....I'm back

 

First of all I'd just like to say thank you, and of course you're right, I'm not anti BASC at all. Just a concerned member.

 

 

The issue of lead contamination in the food chain seems to be a concern at the moment. However all the evidence being reviewed by the LAG which points to higher lead levels in humans seem to me to bear no relation to the UK. Indeed the 2 main papers relate to blood lead levels in the Inuit population of Alaska, and the first nation Cree Indians of North Dakota and Canada. Of course the diet of these two cultures is totally different to that of the UK, where game meat forms a tiny part of the diet compared to the amount of wild meat eaten by the Inuits and Cree.

When WWT originally wrote to DEFRA stating that new evidence had been found that indicated there were human health issues associated with lead ammunition I can only assume they were citing the above studies?

They also stated that two UK based studies by the FSA and VLA 'contained flaws, and were not sufficiently rigorous' I can only assume that the FSA and VLA studies didn't fit with the WWT vision so was dismissed out of hand. Let's just hope WWT's survey on compliance isn't flawed or sufficiently rigorous.

 

As you've already mentioned the LAG are awaiting the results of the FSA Scotland survey into game meat, but I would ask what else the shooting interest groups are doing to counteract the claims made by WWT and there allies?

 

One last question for now. Have you managed to find out what FACE's response was to the ECHA?

[David BASC]

You are correct that there are several papers looking at non UK populations and their exposure to lead in food, whose diet is very heavy in terms of shot game.

 

The terms of reference for the LAG are:

 

The purpose of the Lead Ammunition Group (the Group) is to bring together relevant stakeholders and experts to advise Defra and the FSA on:

a. the key risks to wildlife from lead ammunition, the respective levels of those risks and to explore possible solutions to any significant risks;

b. possible options for managing the risk to human health from the increased exposure to lead as a result of using lead ammunition.

The scope will be limited to England* (though relevant research and evidence may be drawn from anywhere) and focused on safety aspects for human food, impacts on wildlife and issues surrounding possible alternatives to lead

 

 

That’s just the first bit, the rest is on the LAG web site.

 

So although the LAG is and must look at this from a UK / England perspective, remember human beings will absorb lead in food, or in the air in the same way, and it will be stored within the body or excreted in the same way regardless of what nationality that human is.

 

By looking at different populations and their total lead intake ( level in foods they eat and frequency of eating those foods) and measuring their blood / serum levels of lead can give a clear indication between the level of lead in the diet and the resultant blood serum levels.

 

Were the WWT referring to the studies of Inuit and Cree? Quite possibly, but there have also been cases in Europe when people have been exposed to dietary lead and suffered lead poisoning, and the EFSA study showed dietary lead exposure from a range of foods and lead was way down the list..

 

There were some tests of game purchased from shops the FSA did in about 2007 I think it was and found on average the level of lead was low (although there are no limits at the moment for game) but some samples they tested were way over the limit for red meat. However, the sample size was small. Maybe that’s why the WWT did not like it?

 

But it did show that typically game that had been processed had a lower level of lead, in some cases undetectable, indicating that it’s perfectly possible in many cases to remove the lead from the game before it gets into the food chain by careful preparation.

 

I remember BASC mentioning this a few years ago, and were immediately accused by some of trying to get chefs not to use game!

 

What can be done to counter the WWT claims? It’s a matter of gathering evidence to counter those claims. There is no doubt that game shot with lead will have a degree of lead contamination, but how much of that is or can be removed in preparation and how much people are consequently exposed to could well put lead intake via game way below any current EU limits for food- if so the claims by WWT on health grounds are debunked.

 

Same applies of course to environmental risks. Where is the evidence?

 

This is exactly the point that BASC and the rest of the shooting industry put to the Minister a few years ago, and why there are no plans at all in front of Parliament to ban or further restrict lead shot.

 

That’s the position all the shooting organisations want to maintain. Defra et al will listen to and react to evidence as well as public opinion, so its important that we (mainly the CA and BASC) keep promoting game as a good food and do all we can to increase game sales

 

Regarding FACE, I can’t find anything on their web site about their response, but the FACE policy on lead remains the same. To phase out lead shot over wetlands and to preserve lead shot for all other shooting.

 

David

[Scully]

First things first David,I think an apology is due.It was not my intention in my post #406 to infer that YOU personally had been lying,but rather BASC as an organisation on the whole.So I sincerely apologise for that.

Personally I think you're between a rock and a hard place at the moment, especially as no other organisations(the NGO are not on the LAG so perhaps that is their reason) have proffered their input at all,nor indeed any other senior BASC staff(your Policy Development Manager was spotted perusing just recently,but chose not to give his thoughts)though I'm not sure what to conclude from this.

I remain sceptical about BASC's commitment however,as I don't understand how C.O.Gorman can stress 'evidence based' material from the point of view of BASC,as this seems to contradict his position on FACE UK,and indeed the position of J.Swift in his role on FACE EU in view of the latters policy of the phasing out of lead shot,a policy which incidently,I am pleased to see you have at last admitted following Poontangs posts.

I think we would have to be terribly naive to believe that lead is to be phased out ONLY for shooting which takes place over wetlands.

First shorelines and then waterfowl in general,now wetlands.SSSI's?Not much left,and squeezing all the time.

Despite mudpattens post(anyone would think he worked for BASC! ,and most of which is based on assumptions)I am not anti BASC either,but I am anti bull droppings!

[gunsmoke]

You are correct that there are several papers looking at non UK populations and their exposure to lead in food, whose diet is very heavy in terms of shot game.

 

I That’s the position all the shooting organisations want to maintain. Defra et al will listen to and react to evidence as well as public opinion, so its important that we (mainly the CA and BASC) keep promoting game as a good food and do all we can to increase game sales

 

 

David

 

Some great post lately. Some truth is now coming out. promoting game food and increase sales is a very good aim. However: My game dealer will not take birds from me shot with steel shot. I was trying out steel shot cartridges on pigeons last year and when I turn them into the dealer, I told him I'd used steel shot. He did not want them.

 

Are game dealer puying duck shot with steel shot?

 

I note that from the BASC survey in the WWT report now called the Cromie report, the one the WWT are hitting shooting over the head with. 39% of shooter where it is legally required to use non-lead shot disagree with the regulations. only 42% agree and 16% neither agree or deisagree.

[David BASC]

Good morning Scully,

 

Firstly thank you very much for your apology for any mis-understanding, it’s absolutely accepted and very much appreciated.

 

I honestly cannot think of anything that BASC has published anywhere that’s not a true and accurate reflection of what we said or did at the time.

 

Conor as well as other staff members will read the forums from time to time of course, but if they don’t post anything that’s not implying anything at all. Both BASC and FACE want to see any proposal for any change in the use of lead shot to be evidence based.

 

At the moment the BASC Councils position on lead shot is to resist any further change in the UK, same as the CA’s. This is the position we hold regardless of our membership of FACE.

 

The NGO position on lead is that they believe the Scottish system makes more sense, ie a total ban on the foreshore and all wetlands, much like the FACE position in Europe.

 

What will happen next? I honestly don’t know but I say again that in my opinion its Europe where the restrictions, if any, will come from.

 

David

[al4x]

 

 

The NGO position on lead is that they believe the Scottish system makes more sense, ie a total ban on the foreshore and all wetlands, much like the FACE position in Europe.

 

 

 

seems someone is talking sense

[David BASC]

Gunsmoke

 

There is a call for steel shot pigoens on this very forum, all be it in clay shooting at the mo?

So if you have any you can get 50p each.

 

 

Steel shot wood pigeons wanted

50p per bird paid

Wanted all year around

Can collect nationwide (dependant on quantities)

Save them up in ya freezer and give me a call

 

Tel Louise 07920795672

[Salopian]

David Ilsley said,

'What will happen next? I honestly don’t know but I say again that in my opinion its Europe where the restrictions, if any, will come from.'

 

Now I know I may be an old cumudgeon but is it not about time that we ruled our own country?

We once had an Empire, we were once a World power.

We are not entangled in the Euro fiasco, we have our own monetary, legal and Parliamentary system, why do we have to be beholding to Brussels.

Brussels has plagued us with Abu Hamsa et al without contributing to his welfare and that of his cronies.

Ever since we joined the EEC it has plagued our farm produce with milk being poured down the gutters and apples wasted as cattle food, it is about time we started looking after ourselves. Charity and common sense should begin at home.

[David BASC]

Speaking personally yes I look back at the days when the sun never set on the British Empire, and woder where its all gone...if I could travel back in time my first port of call would be the Great Exhibition of 1851.

 

Where did it all start to go wrong

 

David

[MartynGT4]

Speaking personally yes I look back at the days when the sun never set on the British Empire, and woder where its all gone...if I could travel back in time my first port of call would be the Great Exhibition of 1851.

 

+1

[mudpatten]

I`d imagine that we were all pretty much in agreement with that sentiment.

 

Why, when the EU is in financial meltdown and we are all staring into an economic abyss that will make the Great Depression look like a simple accounting error, is some EU department still beavering away in order to impose yet more restriction,red tape,beaurocracy and waste upon us all.

 

One might have hoped that some of these obscure but pernicious departments might have been terminated during the austerity cuts that the EU beaurocracy appears NOT to be making.

 

When will we have British politicians with the strength of character, they`ll certainly have overwhelming public support,to tell the EU to eff off?

 

And what would the EU do if that happened? Savage political or economic sanctions? The answer, absolutely nothing. The French, god bless the cheese eating surrender monkeys, do it all the time.

[gunsmoke]

Are we not getting a little off topic?

[Salopian]

Gunsmoke,

No I don't think we are getting off topic, I think it is about time we as a shooting community got some moral fibre, grew a backbone and lifted our heads out of the sand and saw what is coming.

Why as an island nation should we allow Eurocrats to tell us what we should do, when we actually have very little evidence that we are suffering from the effects of Lead contamination.

It is noticable that the legislation implemented in the USA was driven by coastline located organisations concerned with the mortality of mainly flyway geese. We do not read of moves to ban the use of Lead for clayshooting in the USA.

Because we have sat back and thought this will never effect us we have not prepared a defence, if as is mentioned it is possible that enforcement could be with us by Autumn 2013, do you think an organisation lead by John Swift and other organisations chaired by John Swift will have an appetite for a fight?

[al4x]

Gunsmoke

 

There is a call for steel shot pigoens on this very forum, all be it in clay shooting at the mo?

So if you have any you can get 50p each.

 

 

Steel shot wood pigeons wanted

50p per bird paid

Wanted all year around

Can collect nationwide (dependant on quantities)

Save them up in ya freezer and give me a call

 

Tel Louise 07920795672

 

 

I'd lay money on them not being for human consumption and the hawk that eats them not worrying about them looking like a sieve

[gunsmoke]

I'd lay money on them not being for human consumption and the hawk that eats them not worrying about them looking like a sieve

 

As a good report I phone the number and hada long chat with Louise. The birds are for birds of pray. Once again Davidbasc has been misleading. he did not tell you that.

 

Did you know that BASC sent out 3000 questionnaire and only had 577 returns. So they did it again and got 427 returns out of 2nd 3000. SO the survey report was only from 939 people. 939 mainly BASC members out of 130,000 members have the fate of lead shot for shooting in their hands.