JAT Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Hi all, question for the legal experts. 16 year old lad I shoot with has just been granted his first shotgun certificate. No-one else in his house shoots so the police insisted on a cabinet with two keys. One for him to keep and one for his parents. I have an old Baikal shotgun which I would like to give him as a gift. Can I just pass it over, with the approval of his parents, then inform the police of the transaction or am I breaking some law regarding the age of the holder? Thanks for your help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin128 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) The use of the shotgun is regulated...he has to shoot with someone over 21 if he is under 15. A young person cannot buy or hire a shotgun or ammunition until he is 18. The detail... http://forums.pigeonwatch.co.uk/forums/index.php?/topic/173038-safe-shooting/ Don't think parents should have keys to his cabinet. Edited May 22, 2012 by Robin128 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worthy130 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 surely his parents must have a licence, otherwise they should not be able to access his guns! as for transfering a shotgun to him, its the only way he can possess one as he is too young to buy one. (i'm pretty sure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oscarsdad Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Agreed-how can his parents have keys if they are not cert holders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin128 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 The lad should join BASC and take their advice and then discuss with FEO. IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedwards1966 Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) No-one else in his house shoots so the police insisted on a cabinet with two keys. One for him to keep and one for his parents. If his parents don't hold a SGC then they should not have a key to his cabinet, that is giving them access to the guns, which is not allowed. The keys need to be somewhere that ensures the guns cannot be accessed by a non certificate holder. As he is over 15 he can't buy a shotgun (or ammo) until he is 18, however he can be gifted one as you wish to do. You write the details of the gun on his certificate (make, type, serial no. etc.), and then you both notify the police of the transaction. Edited May 22, 2012 by bedwards1966 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Posts #3, #4 and #6 - there is a logical explanation if you think about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonclay Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Assume that cabinet has two locks, so parents need to be present for him to open cabinet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAT Posted May 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Thank you Bedwards1966. Reading info and your reply, I thought that although he can possess he cannot buy and only use when supervised by someone over the age of 21. Just wanted confirmation. So will gift the shotgun and advise the police. As regards the keys, the answer is quite simple. There are two separate locks on the cabinet, which use two separate keys. The lad (who is 16) cannnot open the cabinet without his parents key and they cannot open the cabinet without his. This system has to be observed, as advised by the police, to allow him to hold a certificate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Agreed-how can his parents have keys if they are not cert holders? They don't. The original post says that the lad has a key and the parents have a key. Therfore neither the SGC holder or the parents have access without the others consent. The parents are never in possession of the guns so the law isn't being broken. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 They don't. The original post says that the lad has a key and the parents have a key. Therfore neither the SGC holder or the parents have access without the others consent. The parents are never in possession of the guns so the law isn't being broken. J. Unless there's only one lock, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonclay Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 That's why they insisted on a cabinet with two locks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) If the parents dont hold an SGC they are not allowed access to any key's to the gun cabinet ! Just copied this from the BASC website ! Keep your shotgun secured – for preference in a purpose-built gun cabinet – when not in use. Ensure that no-one else has access to the keys – remember it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that unauthorised persons (which includes anyone who hasn’t got a shotgun certificate) do not have access to your guns. Edited May 22, 2012 by lumpy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonclay Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Parents won't have access to the guns as they will only be able to open one of the locks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 (edited) The Police view - whether right or wrong - only holds good on a cabinet with two locks. If he had or later wanted to get one of the multi-locking point gun safes - their ruling is down the pan. I think it is flawed. Edited May 22, 2012 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northamptonclay Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Which is why they said he had to have a cabinet with two locks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Parents won't have access to the guns as they will only be able to open one of the locks I take it you never read this bit ( Ensure that no-one else has access to the keys) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Unless there's only one lock, of course. 'No-one else in his house shoots so the police insisted on a cabinet with two keys.' J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 If the parents dont hold an SGC they are not allowed access to any key's to the gun cabinet ! Just copied this from the BASC website ! Keep your shotgun secured – for preference in a purpose-built gun cabinet – when not in use. Ensure that no-one else has access to the keys – remember it is YOUR responsibility to ensure that unauthorised persons (which includes anyone who hasn’t got a shotgun certificate) do not have access to your guns. No. The parents aren't allowed acces to the guns. The piece you quoted says they people aren't allowed access to the 'keys' but that refers to 'keys'in the sense that they could use them to unlock the cabinet. As it goes on to say, it's access to the guns which is the point at issue. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lumpy Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 No. The parents aren't allowed acces to the guns. The piece you quoted says they people aren't allowed access to the 'keys' but that refers to 'keys'in the sense that they could use them to unlock the cabinet. As it goes on to say, it's access to the guns which is the point at issue. J. If his parent's hold one set of key's dosent that indicate joint access ?? If the lad cant be trusted with his own key's should he really have a gun ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 I take it you never read this bit ( Ensure that no-one else has access to the keys) ? You are taking it out of context. The BASC guidance is written is the contect of a cert holder of full age not allowing people access to their guns by allowing ythem access to the 'keys' (ie; the ability to actually unlock the cabinet). We are talking about a different situation here - one of an 'under age' cert holder. There is no breach of law in a non-authorised person having a key to a gun cabinet as long as that person cannot use it to access the guns. The cert holders parents cannot access his guns. The only 'power' they can exercise is that of preventing him accessing his guns. They cannot get to his guns on their own so cannot do anything with them. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happypig Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Its a practical solution..... Whilst I think the lad should get his father involved in a little clay shooting and encourage him to also get a cert ( and therefore help fund his shooting), surely this is the best solution. A two key, two lock operation provides that little failsafe for the parents and also the lad. thunbs up to the FEO for a solution that brings a youngster into the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 'No-one else in his house shoots so the police insisted on a cabinet with two keys.' J. Posts #7 and 10. We've already been there. Now, where's me tea I'll stir that as well while I'm at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonathanL Posted May 22, 2012 Report Share Posted May 22, 2012 Its a practical solution..... Whilst I think the lad should get his father involved in a little clay shooting and encourage him to also get a cert ( and therefore help fund his shooting), surely this is the best solution. A two key, two lock operation provides that little failsafe for the parents and also the lad. thunbs up to the FEO for a solution that brings a youngster into the sport. Precisely. The lad cannot access the guns and neither can his parents. We slag the cops off a lot but this is actually a very sensible arrangement. J. Posts #7 and 10. We've already been there. Now, where's me tea I'll stir that as well while I'm at it. What on earth are you on about? One of those posts was mine anyway so I fail to see how you are using it to prove me wrong. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cowboy1403 Posted May 23, 2012 Report Share Posted May 23, 2012 i`m sorry to say but i think this is a bad idea as i see this. if the police dont think he is responsible enough to have sole access to his guns they shouldn`t have granted his cert in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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