RFD to RFD charges

[Blunderbuss]

very nice Dave. you have it cut now i take it.

 

Not yet - either Nigel Teague or HPS in Gloucester are looking favourite to do it

[activeviii]

isn't john very friendly with Mr Teague

[Thunderbird]

but i really must dangle the maggot more often it would seam. :lol:

 

Well it is fathers day.

[Bloggs]

Is this the five minute argument or the full half hour? Do you know what, I've just come back from a pleasant morning's shooting with some mates, the sun is shining at long last. I have a cold beer in my hand and my son is cooking dinner for me for Father's day. So I'm in too good a mood to be ***** arguing the toss over this. I'm sure there are some other threads for you to be "correct" all over. Have a nice day

 

Mmmmmmmmm, cold beers - that's a brilliant idea, right I'm off to the fridge right now....!

 

Good post by the way

[JonathanL]

Is this the five minute argument or the full half hour? Do you know what, I've just come back from a pleasant morning's shooting with some mates, the sun is shining at long last. I have a cold beer in my hand and my son is cooking dinner for me for Father's day. So I'm in too good a mood to be ***** arguing the toss over this. I'm sure there are some other threads for you to be "correct" all over. Have a nice day

 

So, you get to start a thread slagging off RFD's by saying that they are running some sort of scam and ripping people off and then expect not to have to defend your position! Sorry mate but the world doesn't work that way.

 

Whatever a dealer charges for carrying out a service for you (a service which you clearly expect him to carry out without even asking) is u to him. Some might do it for free, some may do it at cost and some will do it at a profit. You cannot expect a business to do things for zero return and to suggest that making a profit on a transaction is a 'scam' is pretty poor, to be honest.

 

J.

[wildfowler.250]

The fee doesn't seem unreasonable when you have the paper work involved and turn a small profit for your time. And if you are having a gun sent then it's usually a good deal or you would get it locally?

 

My BIGGEST grudge is that a gun and ammo can't be sent together so you have to pay an extra 50 quid,(fees both ends). So if that's 50 bullets or 10 gauge shells thrown in with the gun then your as well buying them from a shop!

[JonathanL]

If they are not doing it right, thats down to them.

 

And what happens when the transferring RFD gives you a gun that you aren't allowed to posses. You have then committeed an offence by possessing it.

 

If the sending RFD is not competent enough to send the correct gun, thats their problem, send it back!

 

And the recieving RFD then has the hassle of putting things right. So the wrong gun turns up (it happens, believe me) what is the RFD to do? He is the one who now has to waste his time sending it back and the customer will complain like hell if he charges him for it - which he should do as it's the customers problem as his agent has sent the wrong item. So, instead of a £25 charge for his new gun he now has a £50 charge as the RFD is doing the work twice.

 

Iv never bought a gun with out first phoning the seller to confirm all of the advertised details and for them to answer any possible questions Iv had. Common scence really?

 

Not saying you have but many people do. Like I said before, you even get people buying stuff they can't legally take possession of!

 

The details of the guns have been checked and confirmed when I went to the shop, opened the packaging (which has always been a plastic carry case) and checked the gun over. The paper work was then completed.

 

So, you want RFD's to essentually allow people to roll in and open packages like it's christmas day and their shop becomes a sort of santa's grotto with packaging all over the place while other people are trying to buy stuff? Believe me, very few guns come only in hard plastic cases - they almost all come with other stuff wrapped around them it's just the case that the RFD has already stripped it off for you.

 

 

Hampshire police accept notification of a gun transfer via E-mail.

 

Most of them do. That doesn't mean it's legal though. It is a requirement in law that you notify via recorded delivery. The police can tell you whatever they want but they cannot invent the law as they go along.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Johnathanl, your first post regarding my comments says that i am wrong in saying that i have to inform the flo/police of each firearm entered into my register. I can assure you that if i failed to inform of any acquisitions from private individuals then the excrement would surely hit the air circulating device!

 

Is it a condition of your RFD that you have to do this? If it isn't then you don't have to. The police can tell you anything they like but there is NO requirement in law to have to do this.

 

But what confuses me is that you then go on to contradict yourself in some of your many further posts on the subject by saying that the notification to police is part of what takes time and therefore justifies the cost.

 

I didn't say that at all. I said that the dealer who hands it to you has to notify the police that it's gone, not that he has recdieved it. Actually (and to open yet another can of worms) almost all RFD's who send guns to other RFD's for transfer to a customer do it wrongly which makes this necessary. The selling RFD is supposed to fill in the customers FAC, send it back to him and then the customer is supposed to take the ticket to the transferring RFD when he collects the gun. Given that they do it wrongly the tranbsferring RFD has costs in time and money in doing it the correct way.

So which is it? Do i not have to inform my flo? (in which case is it ok to give them your name when they come to take my rfd?)

Or do i carry on doing as my flo requires?

 

To reiterate - you do not have to inform anyone when you take in a gun. Your licensing department may say you do but there is no requirement to do so - unless it is a condition of your RFD. Point me to where the law says otherwise and I'll agree with you. If they ever pulled your RFD for not notifying them (which they won't) you would bury them at court.

 

J.

[chrispti]

And what happens when the transferring RFD gives you a gun that you aren't allowed to posses. You have then committeed an offence by possessing it.

 

 

 

And the recieving RFD then has the hassle of putting things right. So the wrong gun turns up (it happens, believe me) what is the RFD to do? He is the one who now has to waste his time sending it back and the customer will complain like hell if he charges him for it - which he should do as it's the customers problem as his agent has sent the wrong item. So, instead of a £25 charge for his new gun he now has a £50 charge as the RFD is doing the work twice.

 

 

 

Not saying you have but many people do. Like I said before, you even get people buying stuff they can't legally take possession of!

 

So, you want RFD's to essentually allow people to roll in and open packages like it's christmas day and their shop becomes a sort of santa's grotto with packaging all over the place while other people are trying to buy stuff? Believe me, very few guns come only in hard plastic cases - they almost all come with other stuff wrapped around them it's just the case that the RFD has already stripped it off for you.

 

 

 

Most of them do. That doesn't mean it's legal though. It is a requirement in law that you notify via recorded delivery. The police can tell you whatever they want but they cannot invent the law as they go along.

 

J.

 

I was in the shop, I had not taken possession of it, so I have not committed any offence.

 

 

 

Im sure if the sending rfd sent the wrong gun, they would be decent enough to apologise and cover the return postage cost?

 

 

 

You like exaggerating! Hardly a Santas grotto, and the packaging wouldn't be all over the place! The guns I have had were Beretta, all came in plastic cases.

The shop has more than one member of staff and is never really busy with people trying to buy stuff.

 

 

 

If the police tell me notification via email is acceptable, then its acceptable.

Edited June 18, 2012 by chrispti

[JonathanL]

I was in the shop, I had not taken possession of it, so I have not committed any offence.

 

The original point that I responded to was one where someone said that the RFD never opened the package and simply handed it over and filled the paperwork out. You can get the wrong gun that way. Also, in many cases the RFD would open it first to check out that it's the correct gun. You may be a perfectly reasoinable chap - I'm sure you are - but many people will bitch like hell if it's the wrong gun. 'Well, he could have bloody checked it first before phoning me to tell me it's in - I've just wasted money and time going to collect it, what am I ayong him for, mutter, mutter, mutter'.

 

 

 

Im sure if the sending rfd sent the wrong gun, they would be decent enough to apologise and cover the return postage cost?

 

Not saying they wouldn't. Also, it's not always the senders fault - remember the example of the chap who ordered a gun he wasn't even allowed to possess? Either way though the receiving RFD has to do the work. What's wrong with him charging for that?

 

 

You like exaggerating! Hardly a Santas grotto, and the packaging wouldn't be all over the place! The guns I have had were Beretta, all came in plastic cases.

 

And, as I say, the vast majority of guns don't come like that. Even the ones which do very often come in something else it's just the case that the RFD has already striped it and disposed of the packaging (which takes time and costs momey) before you have arrived. RFD's very rarely send unwrapped lastic cases with 'Beretta', 'Lanber' or whatever in plain view. You may as well write 'Firearm - please steal me' on it.

 

The shop has more than one member of staff and is never really busy with people trying to buy stuff.

 

Lots of shops are though.

 

J.

[clayman]

But doesn't the sending dealer have to do exactly the same? I.e. have to notify the police that he's taken it off the seller's certificate, and had to pay the courier fees, yet does all this for £15? The maths don't add up to me

 

No,

 

RFD to RFD requires no notification to the Police. Both RFD's simply enter the transfer between RFD's into their registers.

 

The "handing over" RFD has considerably more work to do, with verifying gun's serial and make etc, checking the validity of the SGC and completing the table, plus entering the hand-over to the SGC into their RFD register and then separately notifying the relevant Police; so £25 admin is by no means unreasonable for the time required. The RFD has an investment in secure storage as well as periodic fees to pay for being able to provide the service and accepts legal responsibilities, while not having any profit in the original sale.

[chrispti]

The original point that I responded to was one where someone said that the RFD never opened the package and simply handed it over and filled the paperwork out. You can get the wrong gun that way. Also, in many cases the RFD would open it first to check out that it's the correct gun. You may be a perfectly reasoinable chap - I'm sure you are - but many people will bitch like hell if it's the wrong gun. 'Well, he could have bloody checked it first before phoning me to tell me it's in - I've just wasted money and time going to collect it, what am I ayong him for, mutter, mutter, mutter'.

 

 

 

 

 

Not saying they wouldn't. Also, it's not always the senders fault - remember the example of the chap who ordered a gun he wasn't even allowed to possess? Either way though the receiving RFD has to do the work. What's wrong with him charging for that?

 

 

 

 

And, as I say, the vast majority of guns don't come like that. Even the ones which do very often come in something else it's just the case that the RFD has already striped it and disposed of the packaging (which takes time and costs momey) before you have arrived. RFD's very rarely send unwrapped lastic cases with 'Beretta', 'Lanber' or whatever in plain view. You may as well write 'Firearm - please steal me' on it.

 

 

 

Lots of shops are though.

 

J.

 

I said the rfd never opened the package, he waited for me to come in and open it, which is when it was checked over.

 

If the receiving rfd opened the package before I got there, then I turn up to collect the gun and on inspection, notice some minor damage that the seller never informed of, seller says it wasnt damaged when it left him, who pays for it to be fixed?

 

 

 

Nothing wrong with charging for it at all, there are a few shops near me, I, and most others I know, use the cheaper one, which also gets my custom as i feel he is fair and looks after his customers.

[Andy H]

You can email the firarms dept when telling them you have recieved or disposed of a firearm , It was put into law in 2011 "The Firearms (Electronic Communications) Order 2011"

 

The Firearms (Electronic Communications) Order 2011 was passed by Parliament in April 2011. The Order legalises the use of electronic communication methods for the statutory notifications required by the Firearms Acts. In essence email and fax may now be used to communicate notifications of transfer to police licensing authorities.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Andy H

[Blunderbuss]

Is this the five minute argument or the full half hour? Do you know what, I've just come back from a pleasant morning's shooting with some mates, the sun is shining at long last. I have a cold beer in my hand and my son is cooking dinner for me for Father's day. So I'm in too good a mood to be ***** arguing the toss over this. I'm sure there are some other threads for you to be "correct" all over. Have a nice day

 

 

So, you get to start a thread slagging off RFD's by saying that they are running some sort of scam and ripping people off and then expect not to have to defend your position! Sorry mate but the world doesn't work that way.

 

Whatever a dealer charges for carrying out a service for you (a service which you clearly expect him to carry out without even asking) is u to him. Some might do it for free, some may do it at cost and some will do it at a profit. You cannot expect a business to do things for zero return and to suggest that making a profit on a transaction is a 'scam' is pretty poor, to be honest.

 

J.

 

Nice misquote. I haven't "slagged off" RFDs or anyone else. I opened a thread to discuss RFD charges, this being my first experience of them and yes, I did question if this particular dealer (not all of them) was taking the ****. That is "question" by the way, not state as fact. I sought the experience and views of others, which I was prepared to take on board.

 

This is a shooting forum; I think this is a legitimate topic for discussion, even if you don't. I think it's OK for people to disagree with what I, or you have said, even if you don't. Other dealers have joined the debate in a grown up manner and explained their side of it eloquently, without shouting me or anyone else down. Even leading me to concede some ground and admit that there is perhaps more to this than I first appreciated.

 

That's why I like this forum. Sometimes if it's a subject I think I know a little about, I am able to help someone else out; sometimes (often in fact) I learn things from others. Sometimes, after a healthy debate I change my mind about things. I'm not a firearms dealer, so this is a subject where I recognise I'm on unfamiliar territory. That doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion, or forbidden from entering into a debate about it, however much you might like to think so.

 

Although I have learned some things from others on here and have been able to see a little of the other side of the story, I've learned nothing from you. Well, actually I have. I've learned that you like to repeatedly (over and over) shout people down, that you're always right and everyone else is wrong. I doubt if I'd ever be able to have a reasoned discussion about anything with you so I won't be bothering. You carry on mass spaming this thread with ten posts an hour about how you are right, and everyone else is wrong, but I won't be responding as I'd rather engage with people who know how to exchange views rather than shout their own to the exclusion of all else

Edited June 18, 2012 by Blunderbuss

[JonathanL]

You can email the firarms dept when telling them you have recieved or disposed of a firearm , It was put into law in 2011 "The Firearms (Electronic Communications) Order 2011"

 

The Firearms (Electronic Communications) Order 2011 was passed by Parliament in April 2011. The Order legalises the use of electronic communication methods for the statutory notifications required by the Firearms Acts. In essence email and fax may now be used to communicate notifications of transfer to police licensing authorities.

 

It has come into law but it is not yet actually legal to do it that way. There is a required consultation on suitable methods that has to be carried out first which, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been done yet. The police then have to establish an email address to do it and publish the fact. I certainly haven't been notified of my force's official method of notification and I don't know anyone who has.

 

J.

[al4x]

always interesting I've been notifying mine by e-mail for 4 years now

[JonathanL]

Nice misquote. I haven't "slagged off" RFDs or anyone else. I opened a thread to discuss RFD charges, this being my first experience of them and yes, I did question if this particular dealer (not all of them) was taking the ****. That is "question" by the way, not state as fact. I sought the experience and views of others, which I was prepared to take on board.

 

This is a shooting forum; I think this is a legitimate topic for discussion, even if you don't. I think it's OK for people to disagree with what I, or you have said, even if you don't. Other dealers have joined the debate in a grown up manner and explained their side of it eloquently, without shouting me or anyone else down. Even leading me to concede some ground and admit that there is perhaps more to this than I first appreciated.

 

That's why I like this forum. Sometimes if it's a subject I think I know a little about, I am able to help someone else out; sometimes (often in fact) I learn things from others. Sometimes, after a healthy debate I change my mind about things. I'm not a firearms dealer, so this is a subject where I recognise I'm on unfamiliar territory. That doesn't mean I'm not entitled to an opinion, or forbidden from entering into a debate about it, however much you might like to think so.

 

Although I have learned some things from others on here and have been able to see a little of the other side of the story, I've learned nothing from you. Well, actually I have. I've learned that you like to repeatedly (over and over) shout people down, that you're always right and everyone else is wrong. I doubt if I'd ever be able to have a reasoned discussion about anything with you so I won't be bothering. You carry on mass spaming this thread with ten posts an hour about how you are right, and everyone else is wrong, but I won't be responding as I'd rather engage with people who know how to exchange views rather than shout their own to the exclusion of all else

 

I haven't shouted anyone down. I've pointed out where people are wrong - what's the problem with that? If people keep posting things which are not correct then why can't I correct it? There have been several points made on this one thread which simply are not correct. A case in point is the one which was made regarding the notofications RFD's have to make to the police; a dealer absolutely and categorically does not have to notify the licensing department when he takes a gun on to his books. The exception would be if the police have added a condition to require it to his registration. Now, people can keep repeating that incorrect fact as much as they like but it does not make it true. The point of a discussion place like this is that eventually (hopefully) people arrive at the right answer and that won't hapen if people are labouring under a mistaken belief as to the facts.

 

You did, by the way, suggest that dealers were contemptuous of their customers and were trying to rip them off with high charges and that they had a 'so tough' attitude (post number 25), this after just having said that you didn't even ask the dealer in question whether he would take the item in for you. You simply ordered it and then informed him that it was coming, expecting him to take delivery for you as if you had some sort of right to have him take it in for you.

 

J.

[Thunderbird]

It has come into law but it is not yet actually legal to do it that way. There is a required consultation on suitable methods that has to be carried out first which, to the best of my knowledge, hasn't been done yet. The police then have to establish an email address to do it and publish the fact. I certainly haven't been notified of my force's official method of notification and I don't know anyone who has.

 

J.

 

Avon & Somerset is one. Official. Definite.

[JonathanL]

always interesting I've been notifying mine by e-mail for 4 years now

 

Lots and lots of people do and have been doing so for a while. I just find it quite amazing that many forces are allowing people to do it and are even encouraging them. The problem, as with all of these things, will be when the wheel comes off.

 

Don't get me wrong - notification by email is probably the better way because there is a record of it having been sent and recieved. At present the police won't know if the notification has been lost in the post. Also, if people simply decide that they can't be bothered to send the notification there is very little the police can do further down the line. The police can say that you didn't send it and you can say that you did. They have no evidence that you didn't send it so I don't really think they would be able to successfully prosecute for failing to notify them.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Avon & Somerset is one. Official. Definite.

 

I don't see an address published on their website - have they published it to cert holders? Also, I can't find any reference to the required consultation by the secretary of state or any directions made by him allowing the use of electronic notifications.

 

They may be allowng it (many are) but I'm not convinced that it is actually legal as yet.

 

J.

[Thunderbird]

I don't see an address published on their website - there is, see belowhave they published it to cert holders? Also, I can't find any reference to the required consultation by the secretary of state or any directions made by him allowing the use of electronic notifications.

 

They may be allowng it (many are) but I'm not convinced that it is actually legal as yet.

 

J.

 

The address is: FIREARMS.LICENSING@avonandsomerset.police.uk (given on their website and also given at the bottom of their own transfer forms)

 

Me (via email): "Is it acceptable to notify you of the transfer of a shotgun via email, provided it mirrors the content of your form?"

 

Force Licensing Manager (via email): "Yes, that will be fine"

 

Date of exchange 08/02/2010

[al4x]

Lots and lots of people do and have been doing so for a while. I just find it quite amazing that many forces are allowing people to do it and are even encouraging them. The problem, as with all of these things, will be when the wheel comes off.

 

Don't get me wrong - notification by email is probably the better way because there is a record of it having been sent and recieved. At present the police won't know if the notification has been lost in the post. Also, if people simply decide that they can't be bothered to send the notification there is very little the police can do further down the line. The police can say that you didn't send it and you can say that you did. They have no evidence that you didn't send it so I don't really think they would be able to successfully prosecute for failing to notify them.

 

J.

 

Out of interest how can the wheel fall off so to speak when you have a dated and timed copy of the details sent, then a read receipt that they have read it and an acknowledgement they have updated their records?

 

Herts seem to know it cuts down admin time and lost items in the post and have been working this way and advising to send in notifications like this for ages.

[Andy H]

Here is the home office circular sent to all courts effective 1st april 2011.

 

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/corporate-publications-strategy/home-office-circulars/circulars-2011/006-2011/

 

And here are the firearms department's email addresses .

 

http://www.basc.org.uk/en/utilities/document-summary.cfm/docid/1DCF6036-F1D5-4A7F-A9287D08F0CC92C8

[JonathanL]

The address is: FIREARMS.LICENSING@avonandsomerset.police.uk (given on their website and also given at the bottom of their own transfer forms)

 

Me (via email): "Is it acceptable to notify you of the transfer of a shotgun via email, provided it mirrors the content of your form?"

 

Force Licensing Manager (via email): "Yes, that will be fine"

 

Date of exchange 08/02/2010

 

That email pre-dates the Electronic Communications order by well over a year. Like I say; I still don't think that notification by email alone is yet legal.

 

J.

[Thunderbird]

That email pre-dates the Electronic Communications order by well over a year. Like I say; I still don't think that notification by email alone is yet legal.

J.

 

All i care about is that if someone who's job title is Force Licensing Manager tells me to do something (and that something makes my life easier), I'm doing it...