basil-blaster Posted June 27, 2012 Report Share Posted June 27, 2012 hi i shoot a high number of foxes a year but i wanted to get deer conditions on my liscence as theres deer on our land and the police says i need to get a letter from someone saying that i have been with them and shot there deer rifle and that in there opinion that im safe to shoot them, i shoot 200 foxes plus a year and i have a 243 and a 22-250 and had them for 3 and 4 years so i have plenty of experiance with large calibres. i just need someone who is williing to let me tag along and shoot there gun once so i can get the conditions to be able to shoot deer legally on my own land and other farms as i have a open liscence so i just need it passed by the police then i can get prmission from other farmers and friends and im sorted. obviously i will make it right with you as soon as i get it passed whoever i go with can come shooting on the land wherever i go, let me know if you want to help another shooter out, by the way im in west yorkshire, and willing to travel a bit anywere in yorkshire or close to yorkshire thanks johnathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 You already have a deer rifle so why do you need a letter saying you've shot one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bignoel Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 i think they are asking that he has been mentord for taking deer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utectok Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 That sounds bonkers to me and probably not legal ask basc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 I am struggling to understand this but if you already have a .243" and permission for deer i am happy to accompany you and certify you ok, you need deer while mentored on your cert then (as long as you are obviously) you cannot shoot deer on any of my ground with my rifle as thats illegal as i do not own the ground so it wont come under estate rifle rules. Put the use of my gun on your ticket with a mentor condition on your ground and i am ok with that. Pay my petrol from Clitheroe and back is the deal. I have held a level two for about 7 yrs at a guess. PM me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 you don't have to own the ground for the estate rifle clause Kent but in this case you have a few options you could do some paid stalks and get the experience that way or DSC1 holds some clout with some forces. I had the safety issue mentioned this week when asking about removing my accompanied condition the FEO thought nothing of DSC1 was of benefit and on pure experience. I resisted the urge to ask why on earth safety was any different from foxing with the same firearm I'd been using for 18 months. In my case it appears I've done enough to get the condition removed but DSC1 certainly wasn't going to swing anything with him. Funnily enough I moved in Herts so have been under two different FEO's my previous one when asked said DSC1 would be fine to lift it just shows what a complete load of ******** it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 you don't have to own the ground for the estate rifle clause Kent but in this case you have a few options you could do some paid stalks and get the experience that way or DSC1 holds some clout with some forces. I had the safety issue mentioned this week when asking about removing my accompanied condition the FEO thought nothing of DSC1 was of benefit and on pure experience. I resisted the urge to ask why on earth safety was any different from foxing with the same firearm I'd been using for 18 months. In my case it appears I've done enough to get the condition removed but DSC1 certainly wasn't going to swing anything with him. Funnily enough I moved in Herts so have been under two different FEO's my previous one when asked said DSC1 would be fine to lift it just shows what a complete load of ******** it is The way i read it is very different then. Its rare there is Deer on the ground i own but under my supervision anyone can use my gun or guns on it. If i own the shooting rights the same but i dont own any. If its simply a permission ie other side of the fence then they cannot be authorised by my supervision. The estate next door but one has numerous keepers who have just had to put each others guns on thier certs to stay legal so i for one aint risking anything. Still if someone wishes to put use of my gun on thier cert and pay my travel its a lot cheaper than lashing out on paid stalking at £100+ a day in a market full of rouges and charlatons. When i started stalking i had no such restictions but another stalker taught me the game under the same arrangements traveing in from west yorks strangely enough so just balancing the books with another. I can't see any bother or cost to the guy if he puts mentored stalking on his own legal rifle though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 That sounds bonkers to me and probably not legal ask basc Legal? unfortunatly the chief constable can put any conditions on a cert they wish. Grant is the only true legal aspect as far as i am aware but BASC and the like will tell you the score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 The way i read it is very different then. Its rare there is Deer on the ground i own but under my supervision anyone can use my gun or guns on it. If i own the shooting rights the same but i dont own any. If its simply a permission ie other side of the fence then they cannot be authorised by my supervision. The estate next door but one has numerous keepers who have just had to put each others guns on thier certs to stay legal so i for one aint risking anything. Keepers can't just borrow guns that would have to be in the presence of the owner of that firearm and shooting within the conditions on their ticket. If its a gun to use as an estate rifle then the same applies and why the gun would need to be on each ticket. Occupier or agent hasn't been defined but most forces seem to include written permission to shoot as being enough and really when there has never been a test of it you can see the likelihood of it being an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malkiserow Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 I am struggling to understand this but if you already have a .243" and permission for deer i am happy to accompany you and certify you ok, you need deer while mentored on your cert then (as long as you are obviously) you cannot shoot deer on any of my ground with my rifle as thats illegal as i do not own the ground so it wont come under estate rifle rules. Put the use of my gun on your ticket with a mentor condition on your ground and i am ok with that. Pay my petrol from Clitheroe and back is the deal. I have held a level two for about 7 yrs at a guess. PM me Very generous offer here from Kent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAT Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Hi, also under the West Yorkshire Police and had similiar difficulty earlier this year. They were not interested in a mentored condition, just wanted proof that I had been deer stalking at least a few times with a.n.other and that person would sign a letter stating I was safe and had 'experience'. Seems to be a 'cover backside' rule. Anyway, had an experienced friend sign the letter and now permitted to shoot deer and foxes with .243 as long as on land passed by Chief Constable. Understand that if I'm a good boy after a year or so I should be able to apply for an 'open certificate'. I'd take you out myself, Johnathan, but only having the condition for 6 months the police probably wouldn't approve me as an experienced person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason kaye Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) hi i shoot a high number of foxes a year but i wanted to get deer conditions on my liscence as theres deer on our land and the police says i need to get a letter from someone saying that i have been with them and shot there deer rifle and that in there opinion that im safe to shoot them, i shoot 200 foxes plus a year and i have a 243 and a 22-250 and had them for 3 and 4 years so i have plenty of experiance with large calibres. i just need someone who is williing to let me tag along and shoot there gun once so i can get the conditions to be able to shoot deer legally on my own land and other farms as i have a open liscence so i just need it passed by the police then i can get prmission from other farmers and friends and im sorted. obviously i will make it right with you as soon as i get it passed whoever i go with can come shooting on the land wherever i go, let me know if you want to help another shooter out, by the way im in west yorkshire, and willing to travel a bit anywere in yorkshire or close to yorkshire thanks johnathan Seems strange to me that they want you to shoot a deer with someone elses rifle before they'll put deer on yor certificate,I'm under South Yorkshire and have .243 and .270 both conditioned for groudgame,vermin,fox and deer,but unfortunately my cerificate is closed i.e I can only shoot on land cleared for my calibres,I have shot a few deer by the way of paid stalks,so this might be the way to go,that way you can use their rifle under the estate rifle clause,don't know the legalities of you using my rifle on your land under my supervision though,providing your land is cleared for .243 or .270 can't see there being a problem,but it seems very strange that they granted you a .243 for fox only as S.Yorks wouldn't grant me anything bigger than .22 centrefire until I had deer permission and then it was no problem,no need for letters of competence etc,just permission for land with deer or proof of paid stalking booking,If anyone takes you up on the offer I'm sure they'll want to see your certificate,just to make sure you're not just trying to blag a free stalk Jase. Edited June 28, 2012 by jason kaye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sitsinhedges Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 What a load of cobblers, honestly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted June 28, 2012 Report Share Posted June 28, 2012 Keepers can't just borrow guns that would have to be in the presence of the owner of that firearm and shooting within the conditions on their ticket. If its a gun to use as an estate rifle then the same applies and why the gun would need to be on each ticket. Occupier or agent hasn't been defined but most forces seem to include written permission to shoot as being enough and really when there has never been a test of it you can see the likelihood of it being an issue. you know a lot for someone who still has an accompanied condition, carry on with your interpretations i will go with what i know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason kaye Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 Funny that Basil Blaster hasn't been back on since the night he posted this :beer: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 you don't have to own the ground for the estate rifle clause Kent but in this case you have a few options you could do some paid stalks and get the experience that way or DSC1 holds some clout with some forces. I had the safety issue mentioned this week when asking about removing my accompanied condition the FEO thought nothing of DSC1 was of benefit and on pure experience. I resisted the urge to ask why on earth safety was any different from foxing with the same firearm I'd been using for 18 months. In my case it appears I've done enough to get the condition removed but DSC1 certainly wasn't going to swing anything with him. Funnily enough I moved in Herts so have been under two different FEO's my previous one when asked said DSC1 would be fine to lift it just shows what a complete load of ******** it is According to BASC legal department that I spoke to on Monday morning you do.. :blink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 Interesting when this is their fact sheet on the subject http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hawkeye Posted July 5, 2012 Report Share Posted July 5, 2012 The way i read it is very different then. Its rare there is Deer on the ground i own but under my supervision anyone can use my gun or guns on it. If i own the shooting rights the same but i dont own any. If its simply a permission ie other side of the fence then they cannot be authorised by my supervision. The estate next door but one has numerous keepers who have just had to put each others guns on thier certs to stay legal so i for one aint risking anything. Still if someone wishes to put use of my gun on thier cert and pay my travel its a lot cheaper than lashing out on paid stalking at £100+ a day in a market full of rouges and charlatons. When i started stalking i had no such restictions but another stalker taught me the game under the same arrangements traveing in from west yorks strangely enough so just balancing the books with another. I can't see any bother or cost to the guy if he puts mentored stalking on his own legal rifle though I was also told by BASC legal dept that as my guns are also listed on my son's ticket if i want to sell one he has to be there at the time and also write on the buyers ticket that he is selling him the gun ...Yet i'm the one that owns them.. So by law if they want to sell there guns they have to have everyone present who has them listed on there ticket at the time of sale...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Funny that Basil Blaster hasn't been back on since the night he posted this :beer: Thats not uncommon on forums, why dont people just ask a straight question the way they actually mean it? there are loads of persons out there willing to help another shooter out with all sorts of stuff if they say what they mean. i sometimes wonder how many times i speak to antis or 13 yr old boys unknowing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Interesting when this is their fact sheet on the subject http://www.basc.org.uk/download.cfm/docid/DB12FC55-AA2C-4E12-B87529F5D17C4E2F Depends how the Chief constable defines "occupier" or "servant". As the land i own rarely holds the deer and i do not hold any "shooting rights" in the legal definition only permision and i certainly i am nobodys "servant" an old defintion of in the employ of that person. Do i want to put it to the test to put myself out and do a favour? NO! Now when i took clients out for another on paid days things were very different, as the OP has never returned to his thread though............. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ultimately its not the chief constable it is the Judge when it ever goes to court, as you can see it never has been tested. With the number of definitions and the advice to police as demonstrated in that document its never going to be tested. Obviously you take the stance that suits you but it doesn't stop the advice Hawkeye above was given being incorrect, or indeed some of your posts overleaf. The estate rifle clause is clear the people with permission only slightly more unclear but if you have written permission and drop the landowner a bottle each christmas and help out occasionally you have about as strong argument as you can. Look at the service you provide them ie vermin or deer control its a service and you have been given the right to do so. The countries firearms departments aren't simply out to get you there is law out there it may not be that clear but I actually believe its meant to be like that to give a certain degree of leeway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Ultimately its not the chief constable it is the Judge when it ever goes to court, as you can see it never has been tested. With the number of definitions and the advice to police as demonstrated in that document its never going to be tested. Obviously you take the stance that suits you but it doesn't stop the advice Hawkeye above was given being incorrect, or indeed some of your posts overleaf. The estate rifle clause is clear the people with permission only slightly more unclear but if you have written permission and drop the landowner a bottle each christmas and help out occasionally you have about as strong argument as you can. Look at the service you provide them ie vermin or deer control its a service and you have been given the right to do so. The countries firearms departments aren't simply out to get you there is law out there it may not be that clear but I actually believe its meant to be like that to give a certain degree of leeway. Your welcome to go to court to proove you know better, i think i shall not bother. having been in court with very strong cases in the past i know you can still loose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts