njc110381 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 You're right that Hornets aren't as popular, but only because these days it seems people think that they have to have the flattest trajectory and the highest possible energy to get the job done. For a sub 100 yard gun the .223 isn't any better than the Hornet. It recoils more, makes more noise so needs a bigger mod and burns out barrels faster but that's about it. Apart from the time I started running a bad choice of bullet I can count on one hand the foxes I lost to my Hornet out of hundreds. Most of the time they just fall over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 How do you spell intransigentist? Fin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 so why do no RFD's hold stock of hornets its because demand is so low, the same applies to ammo. The .223 everyone seems to have on the shelf and they stock the ammo as well. If the reports are to be believed the N550 will do a lot more than 100 yards so why restrict yourself, I shoot a lot under 100 yards with NV and funnily enough none have been an issue with the .243 it just means I don't have to restrict shots. The .223 is one of the most popular fox calibers for a good reason and unless you want to shoot rabbits as well is a far better choice simply due to being able to walk into any shop and pick up ammo. You can't argue with the energy they put out being considerably more or the trajectory being far better. Its just another viewpoint for the guy who started off on the right track and started being pushed down the route of a nearly obsolete caliber. We all have opinions personally if you want a foxing gun then buy one a hornet isn't a dedicated fox gun. RFD's buy stock of what new shooters ask for and what the most sells- not nessasarily what works best for the task at hand. Experiance will over time teach you much. The .223 is flatter sure but it will only be an advantage once your shots are over 160 yds, that a lot forther than this gent wants to shoot. A .223 or a .243 will not kill any cleaner at the ranges spoken about as any extra energy is carried out the other side into an inanimate backstop. reducing the amount of extra engergy has advantages in this regards as does reducing the recoil energy and without even mentioning the fact that 1/2 the powder makes it far easier to moderate with a more modestly sized can, stopping your rifle being so much more tippy and reducing total carry weight . one should note that the OP purchased his WMR for the job as a second to his .243- this should tell you a lot - IF YOU TAKE ANY NOTE The hornet is far from obsolite and in getting close to 100yrs it has remained in the catalog for new guns, displacing many other "better foxing rounds" via your unwise / uneducated descrition of "better". Any RFD who wont get you say 300 rounds in on a fortnights notice or don't carry any in stock is a waste of space. There are maybee as many dealers who don't carry .308 factory as don't carry Hornet in many areas? Is the .308 becoming obsolite also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 not at all Wymberley just putting the pros of having a centerfire you don't have to reload for and that is easy to run. When there will be no difference licensing wise why get a gun you have to special order that is hard to find factory ammo for. Its simply another opinion its hard to argue that it isn't one of the most popular fox calibers for a reason. Its mild to shoot and packs a decent punch can be used to 300 yards and is the perfect gun to move up to from a rimfire if you shoot many foxes. If you want to shoot rabbits and the occasional fox then hornet fits quite well as a trundle about gun, when it makes a difference is when you botch the shot or have to take one in not ideal conditions. I've had to take a couple of texas heart shots on foxes for one reason and another thats when you really value the extra clout. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 You're right that Hornets aren't as popular, but only because these days it seems people think that they have to have the flattest trajectory and the highest possible energy to get the job done. For a sub 100 yard gun the .223 isn't any better than the Hornet. It recoils more, makes more noise so needs a bigger mod and burns out barrels faster but that's about it. Apart from the time I started running a bad choice of bullet I can count on one hand the foxes I lost to my Hornet out of hundreds. Most of the time they just fall over. And this is from the guy who shoots moles with what? There aint no telling some folks though well said. why have real facts when you can make your own up from heresay and no experiance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 not at all Wymberley just putting the pros of having a centerfire you don't have to reload for and that is easy to run. When there will be no difference licensing wise why get a gun you have to special order that is hard to find factory ammo for. Its simply another opinion its hard to argue that it isn't one of the most popular fox calibers for a reason. Its mild to shoot and packs a decent punch can be used to 300 yards and is the perfect gun to move up to from a rimfire if you shoot many foxes. If you want to shoot rabbits and the occasional fox then hornet fits quite well as a trundle about gun, when it makes a difference is when you botch the shot or have to take one in not ideal conditions. I've had to take a couple of texas heart shots on foxes for one reason and another thats when you really value the extra clout. Ahh, but a 50 bmg is what you want to shoot them up the bum by the same argument :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 nope the .223 does the job, not ideal but the first time it was leaving a second partridge pen and the second it was seriously lamp shy and everything else had failed and it was a chance encounter wandering away down a tramline. Not ideal but sometimes it has to be done all depends if you shoot purely for fun or whether there is a decent reason behind it. Anyway in conclusion the two dealers who advised the OP did so correctly and pointed him in the correct direction. If he has any sense he will take the advice of those who are likely to sell him the gun and potentially the ammo assuming he doesn't get a hornet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 it was seriously lamp shy and everything else had failed I know a bloke with a WMR and a 550 who could have sorted that out. There is never just cause to take a Texas heart shot and certainly not just because someone has previously screwed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 When I bought my first car from a dealer he suggested a Ford Escort, I replied that I didn't want one as they were everywhere. He said " There's a good reason for that ". I never forgot that advice, and it's served me pretty well over the years, usually the best choice is what other people are using. If I walked into a couple of gunshops and they had a variety of .223 rifles and plenty of ammo, then I would consider it a good sign. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I know a bloke with a WMR and a 550 who could have sorted that out. There is never just cause to take a Texas heart shot and certainly not just because someone has previously screwed up. some play in the country some don't......... the 75 partridges in 2 days that it had had didn't think it was the wrong thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 maybe there are no 2nd hand Hornets on guntrader because all the current owners want to keep hold of them! just get some 30gr Vmax down your WMR and be done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 nope the .223 does the job, not ideal but the first time it was leaving a second partridge pen and the second it was seriously lamp shy and everything else had failed and it was a chance encounter wandering away down a tramline. Not ideal but sometimes it has to be done all depends if you shoot purely for fun or whether there is a decent reason behind it. Anyway in conclusion the two dealers who advised the OP did so correctly and pointed him in the correct direction. If he has any sense he will take the advice of those who are likely to sell him the gun and potentially the ammo assuming he doesn't get a hornet now i thought you were talking heavier bullets and the .243" NOT a .223 and light fragile ones for the THS. The shot was unfair and cruel IMO. Fact is a .223 dont create a massive ammount more than the handloaded hornet (about 400 fps more in the case of a 45grn). The .243 however creates a lot more than .223 with bullets well out in front on weight and lower fragiblility. Indeed i think such a shot with a 100 grn deer bullet correctly executed is or may be more humane than a broadside one when the bullet often just drills a hole by being too tough I have shot rear enders with the .243 when correctly loaded with the right ammo, i cannot ever justify the same with a .22 cf. unless its a mercy shot I know a bloke with a WMR and a 550 who could have sorted that out. There is never just cause to take a Texas heart shot and certainly not just because someone has previously screwed up. i knew the meaning behind that would sail over the top of his head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 what are you talking about Kent at times you do spout complete rubbish, at 100 yards the .223 still has 900ftlbs or so with my load the hornet 400 or there abouts. Its not a usual shot I would take but have taken when circumstances dictate and the phrase they don't like it up em certainly applies. Its far from ideal but it sure isn't marginal killing wise. At times its very easy to spot who just talks and who actually shoots Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 what are you talking about Kent at times you do spout complete rubbish, at 100 yards the .223 still has 900ftlbs or so with my load the hornet 400 or there abouts. Its not a usual shot I would take but have taken when circumstances dictate and the phrase they don't like it up em certainly applies. Its far from ideal but it sure isn't marginal killing wise. At times its very easy to spot who just talks and who actually shoots Just get your facts correct and remember its not me who is still a rellitive newbie with Nil experiance of the hornet and only just got thier second ever centrefire. .223 produces around 3300 with a 45 grn pill the hornet 2900 when handloaded (without adverce pressure). Thats the comparisom. Look at the minimum speed for the squbbiest factory hornet load and it still pushes a 45 grn bullet faster than a HMR pushes a 17 grn bullet and you think thats fine for fox on NV or up to 100yds on so many threads Note: on checking the nearest manual SPEER give the .223 3404 with IMR 4895 as the highest max and H335 only 3020. I think my 3300 a fair an accurate top of the head guess! Based on more than a few years experiance of many different rifles I get 2550 from 46 grn RWS factory and 3050 from 35 vimax, not tried any others and a good 2900 from handloads with 45 grn seirra. just how many ft lb does 400 fps with 45 grns gain with your maths? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 and assumption being the mother of all f ups who said anything about a 45g in the .223 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I have lost count of all the fox's I have had to shoot up the jacksie to get the job done. I know many a shepherd, gamekeeper and land owner that would of been none to happy if I turned down a chance. Remember, I don't believe in apeasing the general public what so ever, they want my guns no matter how much I brown nose them! None survived and did not suffer unduly, no worse than a poor shotgun shot!! The only cal in my limited experiance to end a fox's murderous carear instantly is a 308 up the jacksie. I think it is fool hardy bitching over rights and wrongs in this game. I have seen far more injured fox's from shotguns and fouled up high speed bullets irrespective of the fox's position on the shot. It's a bloody buisness and thats that. Would I do one up the jacksie with a wmr this side of hundred? Sure I would, I know there would be a very good chance to get a second shot on it after anyway. U. Edited July 16, 2012 by Underdog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 and assumption being the mother of all f ups who said anything about a 45g in the .223 i did previous to when you refered to myself and my comment and made up those mythical figures- YOU NEED TO LEARN TO READ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 I have lost count of all the fox's I have had to shoot up the jacksie to get the job done. I know many a shepherd, gamekeeper and land owner that would of been none to happy if I turned down a chance. Remember, I don't believe in apeasing the general public what so ever, they want my guns no matter how much I brown nose them! None survived and did not suffer unduly, no worse than a poor shotgun shot!! The only cal in my limited experiance to end a fox's murderous carear instantly is a 308 up the jacksie. I think it is fool hardy bitching over rights and wrongs in this game. I have seen far more injured fox's from shotguns and fouled up high speed bullets irrespective of the fox's position on the shot. It's a bloody buisness and thats that. Would I do one up the jacksie with a wmr this side of hundred? Sure I would, I know there would be a very good chance to get a second shot on it after anyway. U. Nope but it seems its a bloody buisness when your at it though :o such comments give us all a bad name. One shot is all it should take, a second a mistake, a third a disgrace. One should never take a shot fully expecting to have to take another, those are the rules of the game the deal we should make (or should do) when we set out. woundings happen but to expect them upon taking a shot is inexcusable. Cant see the issue with shotguns i have been killing foxes with shotgun for over 1/4 of a century and have only lost two, one of which i am confident was dead but it was too dangerous to check. range and load appropriate they are the most deadly guns available Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornfree Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 there are a sum total of 2 new hornets and 7 second hand ones in the entire country on guntrader versus 240 odd in .223 that says its pretty much obsolete as a caliber and you will have to have whats available gun wise rather than what you want. The .223 will be spot on for your needs, I keep being told how far you can see with a N550 and if you can see it you will be able to shoot it. Engine room shots fine plenty of energy there and they won't run. Gun wise you have a large choice ammo is stocked in every rfd I've been in and the cost and availability of it means you don't have to reload. The Hornet has an abnormal number of fans on here compared to the real shooting world there are definitely better foxing guns out there. The n550 will pick up eyes at long ranges but shooting them is another thing.the furthest i have shot a fox with my n550 is 130 yards and at that range the dot is covering most of the body,i'am sure its much better with a doubler.but up to 100 yards it works well.having read all these posts i think the hornet is the perfect gun in power terms, but availablity of guns (i want a stainless synthetic) and ammo is just not good enough.so its still down to 222 or 223 and there seems very little to seperate them. bornfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 None survived and did not suffer unduly, no worse than a poor shotgun shot!! U. That is a contradiction in terms. I would hope that any newcomers, and particularly any youngsters, fresh to our sport recognise that fact and totally abhor the whole of that abominable post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornfree Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 maybe there are no 2nd hand Hornets on guntrader because all the current owners want to keep hold of them! just get some 30gr Vmax down your WMR and be done! i have tried 30gr and 33gr but my cz shoots badly with them about 2" to 3" groups.yet 40gr cci's group 1 1/4" bornfree Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) woundings happen but to expect them upon taking a shot is inexcusable. I know what you mean and this is not in the context or ring hole shot foxes but.... I think it is actually a good thing to get into the habit of "expecting" to take a 2nd shot. whether you need to is an entirely different matter I don't know many pro-stalkers but those that I do almost insist on a client's quick reload for the potential follow up shot. nothing worse than seeing something wriggle down a hole or disappear over a horizon whilst you are high fiving. Edited July 16, 2012 by Bewsher500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 thought this might be of interest from the left: .17HMR, .17Hornet, .17rem, 4.5x30, .22WMR, 20tac, .22Jet, .22Hornet, .221 Rem Fireball, .222, .223, .220 Swift, .22-250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Underdog Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 That is a contradiction in terms. I would hope that any newcomers, and particularly any youngsters, fresh to our sport recognise that fact and totally abhor the whole of that abominable post. Whatever you say Sir. I will exercise my free speech whether or not some don't like hearing the truth. I know of no one that shoots fox's extensivly that has not had cause for at some time for a fast follow up shot. Anyone that shoots alot of deer will have a similar situaton arise. Some scorn singleshots for this very reason. You call my post abominable, I call your reply the council of crows. To imply to inexperienced that a rifle is like a death ray and only one shot is all that is ever needed smacks of little experience in the field, certainly not other than fun outings. Kent even admits about two lost to a shotgun, does this trouble me? No, why, should it? It troubles me no more than someone using poisen for rats. Now thats a contradiction in terms Mr. Only taken around thirty deer over the years, two of which were saved from being potentially lost from a fast second shot. Not many fox, I struggle to remember when the bag is around 800 over the years. The deer was shot at 60yds perfect and ran like hell for the forest and I had no dog then. My ability to reload fast after being taught to expect the worse enabled me to get a fast second in her to which she went down. Both entries were about 2" apart. It is unrealistic to think one can be clinically precise all the time, there are to many variables and you would do well to remember whether experienced or not Murphy's law! Just why is it you folk try to shield the truth? Do you really think it will make any difference? U. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Whatever you say Sir. I will exercise my free speech whether or not some don't like hearing the truth. I know of no one that shoots fox's extensivly that has not had cause for at some time for a fast follow up shot. Anyone that shoots alot of deer will have a similar situaton arise. Some scorn singleshots for this very reason. You call my post abominable, I call your reply the council of crows. To imply to inexperienced that a rifle is like a death ray and only one shot is all that is ever needed smacks of little experience in the field, certainly not other than fun outings. Kent even admits about two lost to a shotgun, does this trouble me? No, why, should it? It troubles me no more than someone using poisen for rats. Now thats a contradiction in terms Mr. Only taken around thirty deer over the years, two of which were saved from being potentially lost from a fast second shot. Not many fox, I struggle to remember when the bag is around 800 over the years. The deer was shot at 60yds perfect and ran like hell for the forest and I had no dog then. My ability to reload fast after being taught to expect the worse enabled me to get a fast second in her to which she went down. Both entries were about 2" apart. It is unrealistic to think one can be clinically precise all the time, there are to many variables and you would do well to remember whether experienced or not Murphy's law! Just why is it you folk try to shield the truth? Do you really think it will make any difference? U. I note that in your long (and colourful) reply that not one of your bullet points attempts to contradict the one single criticism that I made. Perhaps because for a Sportsman it's indefensible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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