Cottonseed Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I think that if people are prepared to go thru the hassle of getting a licence they would largely also put some effort in to studying the sport they are about to take up. I agree with you. People don't do any reading in many cases and it comes over loud and clear in sometimes naive text-speak messages to shooting forums. It's sadly obvious they can barely read--or be ***** to read--even when it's about something they're allegedly iterested in. There's no excuse not to mug up on the BASICS when the majority of people have Internet access. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I take your point, but no offence intended - the whole application procedure IS a test - of your suitability, criminal record, temperment, etc, etc, etc. The FEO visit (I know that some FEO visits are a joke!) is a form of test, supposedly to examine and satisfy them that you are competent, safe and knowledgable. In a properly conducted FEO visit for FAC, you have to provide good reason for every firarm you request, and they will expect you to have a good knowledge base, what else is that other than a 'test'? I think that anyone who does not believe (as you and I seem to agree) that the powers that be have not considered compulsory testing and updating are being naive in the least. If we as shooters, possibly via organisations such as BASC etc do not at least discuss this and prepare contingency plans for proposals IF it is ever seriously discussed at government level, then we could be caught with our proverbial underwear around our ankles! Over 20 years ago following a straw poll amongst some training people, the result of which shook the tnen not BASC Director, he asked if the in house Education Dept. (don't know what happened to it) if there were any contigency plans in place. I don't suppose for one minute the answer has changed in the intervening years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Something like Safe Shot would only work if it were widely available of course, but as WelshLamb says - get a lesson at the local ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I am an advocate of training as part of wider reforms to the legislation not in addition to the current legislation, but how much more than. Never point a gun at something you don't want to kill Only an empty/broken gun is a safe gun If you cant see where the projectile will land don't take the shot What else is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 A lesson with a clay shooting coach dose not teach you the basic safety of a rifle or the legality of fac conditions and land clearance. It definitely dose not teach a budding young rifle shot not to shoot at something with blue sky behind it. I showed a lad how to zero his .22. He had started before I got there and was using a tree as a backstop. 30 meters from a antis house. Now wood is not a good back stop for any rifle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 A lesson with a clay shooting coach dose not teach you the basic safety of a rifle or the legality of fac conditions and land clearance. NO but a lesson at your local target club would cover rifle safety if not land conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 should we have a sort of test? well not a test that decides if you get the certificate or not more like a questionnaire. Until there we see dozens of injurys or deaths from improper use we dont need any more hoops to jump through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Still not addressed the issue of basic knowledge tho. Safety yes but I think safety can be delt with one general rule. Never point a gun at something you don't want to hit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 (edited) Until there we see dozens of injurys or deaths from improper use we dont need any more hoops to jump through. What are these 'hoops' people keep talking about? We're talking giving new shooters the basic information required to be safe and competent shots. Surely prevention is better than cure? Hardly a hoop is it? Edited July 24, 2012 by poontang Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matone Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I agree with you. People don't do any reading in many cases and it comes over loud and clear in sometimes naive text-speak messages to shooting forums. It's sadly obvious they can barely read--or be ***** to read--even when it's about something they're allegedly iterested in. There's no excuse not to mug up on the BASICS when the majority of people have Internet access. Well said ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Until there we see dozens of injurys or deaths from improper use we dont need any more hoops to jump through. so we need a dozen dead before we think about asking applicants a few basic questions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 What are these 'hoops' people keep talking about? We're talking giving new shooters the basic information required to be safe and competent shots. Surely prevention is better than cure? Hardly a hoop is it? The fact you still need good reason to own. What do you think basic information will achieve-prevention of already low amount of incidents? People who start shooting are usually helped along by friends/family/whatever and this appears to work because i dont see the countryside littered with dead bodies or sensational stories in the Sun saying otherwise. I would bet more people are injured and killed from horse riding than shooting in the UK and theres nothing to prevent a novice taking one of them onto the road. so we need a dozen dead before we think about asking applicants a few basic questions? Yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 I would bet more people are injured and killed from horse riding than shooting in the UK and theres nothing to prevent a novice taking one of them onto the road. Yes. this was never about people getting killed or injured. just making people more aware of daft bits of legislation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 this was never about people getting killed or injured. just making people more aware of daft bits of legislation. Legislation is what FEO's are for...they thrive in it! Seriously though,like the old saying-if its not broke dont fix it.I know people sometimes ask odd questions on here which usually ends with them being shot down in flames,but the flip side is atleast they're asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 As some may know I look after the insurance at BASC, the number and type of claims I see have remained pretty consistent over the last 17 years, and with no evidence at all that any training or silly conditions placed on fac make a blinds bit iof difference. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Legislation is what FEO's are for...they thrive in it! Seriously though,like the old saying-if its not broke dont fix it.I know people sometimes ask odd questions on here which usually ends with them being shot down in flames,but the flip side is atleast they're asking. and the rest that dont ask because the last guy was shot down for asking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cockercas Posted July 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 ive just looked on basc website, at the codes of practice. trapping, airguns, shotguns. no rifle (from what i can see) so were dose one find the info? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperfection Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 and the rest that dont ask because the last guy was shot down for asking. Well they're not getting upto no good because no one is aware of any incidents.Chances are they simply ask someone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 Look at lamping (Night shooting) or deer CoP they are rifle ones, what else are you looking for, let me know and I will see what I can do to help. David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted July 24, 2012 Report Share Posted July 24, 2012 In all this toing and froing the basic concept put forward by Cockerkas has been lost. I never checked the BASC codes and still havent - I wasnt a member - I now am but regard myself now as a very safe shot. I read an old book on shooting etiquette which included safety and e.g.safe areas to shoot game when in a line of guns. Cockercas is talking about new shooters and a failsafe system linked to all sporting interests to make new people to the sport safe in the sport and for the public to know that shooters are safe. Its a system which is 'just enough' and provides references for more reading. Its good enough to get police support and it could be a requirement to have basic knowledge as with taxis - anyone can read from a book - if the books there at the time. I am in the camp of 'we are where we are and we have done what we have done' but lets now raise our game to protect our sport. Anyone who quotes 'it aint broke - dont fix it' is either out of business or by many regarded with ridicule - is this the attitude which gave the world the steam train the Iphone etc. Change happens - better we lead and have a system which achieves public acclaim for our sport. It is a bit different than codes of practice which do not have to be read and are rather limited in interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 In all this toing and froing the basic concept put forward by Cockerkas has been lost. I never checked the BASC codes and still havent - I wasnt a member - I now am but regard myself now as a very safe shot. I read an old book on shooting etiquette which included safety and e.g.safe areas to shoot game when in a line of guns. Cockercas is talking about new shooters and a failsafe system linked to all sporting interests to make new people to the sport safe in the sport and for the public to know that shooters are safe. Its a system which is 'just enough' and provides references for more reading. Its good enough to get police support and it could be a requirement to have basic knowledge as with taxis - anyone can read from a book - if the books there at the time. I am in the camp of 'we are where we are and we have done what we have done' but lets now raise our game to protect our sport. Anyone who quotes 'it aint broke - dont fix it' is either out of business or by many regarded with ridicule - is this the attitude which gave the world the steam train the Iphone etc. Change happens - better we lead and have a system which achieves public acclaim for our sport. It is a bit different than codes of practice which do not have to be read and are rather limited in interest. I totally agree with the above. We can raise our game and be at the forefront of making our sport as safe as possible, or we can sit back and wait for others to do it for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Look at lamping (Night shooting) or deer CoP they are rifle ones, what else are you looking for, let me know and I will see what I can do to help. David David, read the threads on here. There is a real lack of knoledge in new applicants for thier first FAC and in many who already hold one. I dont think there is anyone in Marford Mill who can compile this well enough on the subject, please look externally for a team (many of us whould work for free to protect our sport) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David BASC Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 Morning Kent, I take your point that there is a lack of knowledge, and to be honest not only with new applicants as you say. What information do you think is lacking? David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) If we "raise our game" and introduce training, does anyone seriously think that the public perception of shooting will change? Public perception seems split in to a number of camps, including:- Those who believe that shooting of any kind is wrong. Wildlife lovers - including the deluded who think that foxes will never attack anything. Those who read of atrocities - Hamilton, Ryan and Moat etc. Those who read reports of armed criminals and wrongly think that tougher licensing laws will stop criminals getting guns. I can't think that our excellent record of very few accidents or potential training courses will sway the opinion of anyone of the above - or any other non-shooter for that matter. Edited July 25, 2012 by Gordon R Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted July 25, 2012 Report Share Posted July 25, 2012 David, read the threads on here. There is a real lack of knoledge in new applicants for thier first FAC and in many who already hold one. I dont think there is anyone in Marford Mill who can compile this well enough on the subject, please look externally for a team (many of us whould work for free to protect our sport) Spot on. It also applies to SGC applicants/holders. Looking at this unpaid external team, you could call them Honorary Education Officers (HEO) and Technical Officers (TO). You would require a syllabus so that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet: It shouldn't be too difficult to sort that out for sporting rifles (any reference to deer could be omitted as that discipline is already well covered) and air rifles. Where's GDT when you need him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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