Lead shot discussion

[Scully]

The point is that its lead in food is always going to be in the spotlite,

 

 

David

And so it should be,if it poses a threat to human health,which isn't the case with spent lead shot.Are there any proven cases of anyone suffering detrimental health effects through the consumption of spent lead shot in game in the UK,or indeed Europe?

[David BASC]

Good morning Scully

 

Yes there are a small number of accute lead poisonings from lead shot in Europe, but they are very rare.

 

The bigger issue with lead in food is chronic poisoning, ie a build up over time causing a range of clinical problems, children are most vulnerable of course.

 

But proper preparation of shot game for example can remove all if not almost all lead or lead contamination.

 

David

[Salopian]

Gentlemen,

I think we are in danger of dancing around handbags in this debate.

Is Lead harmful to Humans?

Yes if exposed to dangerously high levels.

A Colleague is a firing range cleaner (indoor 'pipe' range) he is exposed every day for eight hours a day to Lead dust and contamination, he has regular blood tests and has never been taken off the range or given different duties as respite from his occupation.

As I have said numerous times I have never found a wildfowl corpse suffering from the effects of lead poisoning.

I live very near to the Stiperstones Shropshire where Lead mining was the local industry from Roman times until 1960's, I am not aware of health issues or madness in the local population being any higher than elsewhere.

BASC are quoted as saying that they will defend the use of Lead shot until such time as an economic, viable, efficient alternative is readily available.

That is not going to happen.

Wildfowling, if you have five shots on a flight you have had a brilliant day, cost for ammunition? £10 maximum on average, time taken for this enjoyable pastime anything from one hour to a day.

Clayshooting, one hour 60 cartridges and clays, cost from £20 to £100( Charity shoot).

So it is not the cost of alternative ammunition that is upsetting us, it is the encroachment upon our basic human rights.

When we go out wildfowling we go out to kill Ducks & Geese, as we already know Wildfowlers have been FORCED to use so called non-toxic shot.Why do the soft iron proponents ignore the environmental issues caused by steel shot?

But we have not been given factual true science to say that clayshooting or gameshooting with Lead is as harmful to humans and the environment as the Greens and sadly BASC are having us believe.

BASC, please defend the use of Lead robustly rather than rolling over and accepting every attack on an ammunition component that has yet to be equalled.

[gunsmoke]

Gentlemen,

I think we are in danger of dancing around handbags in this debate.

Is Lead harmful to Humans?

Yes if exposed to dangerously high levels.

.............

BASC are quoted as saying that they will defend the use of Lead shot until such time as an economic, viable, efficient alternative is readily available.

That is not going to happen.

....................

So it is not the cost of alternative ammunition that is upsetting us, it is the encroachment upon our basic human rights.

When we go out wildfowling we go out to kill Ducks & Geese, as we already know Wildfowlers have been FORCED to use so called non-toxic shot.Why do the soft iron proponents ignore the environmental issues caused by steel shot?

 

But we have not been given factual true science to say that clayshooting or gameshooting with Lead is as harmful to humans and the environment as the Greens and sadly BASC are having us believe.

BASC, please defend the use of Lead robustly rather than rolling over and accepting every attack on an ammunition component that has yet to be equalled.

 

Salopian, you are so right with this post.

 

On Pigeon Watch all we get for BASC staff is how good steel is and how lead is toxic.

 

I've proved that Tungsten bullets are Toxic, Is tungsten shot aslo toxic? What affect will using TOXIC tungsten based shot on wetlands have after 200 years the same time we have been using lead. Bismuth is also toxic in the same was as lead. Steel has to be TOXIC. It brakes down to rust and that is toxic in the ground.

 

Can someone show me where BASC have been pro-lead shot?

[BlaserF3]

I too drank from lead pipes for years, but lead piper for new builds were banned decades ago and the water companies have been dosing the water with chemicals to stop the lead coming out into it for years and years.

 

Many plants will absorb lead from the ground as they grow and develop, and as it has no biological use what so ever will tend to stay in the plant. But the amount they absorb is very small of course.

 

David

 

 

Methinks Kettle calling pot black regarding staying on topic

 

I think that BASC are anti lead :look:

[Zapp]

This thread has been split from the thread about replies from MEPs in order to avoid further derailment.

[David BASC]

As I have said so many times before, BASC's position on lead is this:

 

BASC will vigorously oppose any unwarranted restrictions on the use of lead ammunition. Discussions and decisions about possible restriction must fully involve shooting interests to ensure that social, environmental and economic consequences are taken fully into account by decision makers. The justification for any proposed restriction must be clear, substantial and science-based.

 

It really is as simple as that and for anyone to keep on trying ‘prove’ otherwise or to break ranks with FACE UK position are , in my view, simply playing into the hands of those that oppose shooting.

 

Lead is the standard and best shot material. Lead shot is widely available, it is suitable in all appropriately-proved guns, with a wide range of loadings for all gun types. Relative to the other shot types available it is cheap (but price is increasing) and its ballistic qualities are good.

 

David

[Scully]

Good morning Scully

 

Yes there are a small number of accute lead poisonings from lead shot in Europe, but they are very rare.

Source of information David,please.

[David BASC]

Scully,

 

One case I recall was A 45-year-old woman was referred to the Department of Occupational and Environmental Health in January 2002 because of increased blood lead concentrations of unknown origin.

 

She suffered from malaise, fatigue, and diffuse gastrointestinal symptoms. She had a blood lead level of 550 μg/L (normal range < 40 μg/L).

 

She had not been exposed to lead through work or any other source that was immediately identified. Her food habits were normal, but she did consume game occasionally.

 

Laboratory tests showed an increased excretion of lead in the urine. An abdominal X ray in October 2002 revealed a 6-mm rounded metal object in the colon .Before the object could be further localized, the patient contracted gastroenteritis and the metal object was spontaneously released from the colon.

 

The object was a lead shot pellet, Blood lead levels slowly decreased. Nine months later the patients blood lead levels were almost normal (~ 70 μg/L) and her symptoms had almost completely disappeared.

 

But as I say cases are very rare indeed, and this is a key aspect that I understand the Lead Ammunition Group primary evidence group are looking at.

 

David

Edited July 26, 2012 by David BASC

[Scully]

Many thanks,will check it out.Any others?

[al4x]

what shot size would 6mm be David sounds huge?

 

A lesson if ever I heard it to chew your food properly

[Penfolio]

what shot size would 6mm be David sounds huge?

 

A lesson if ever I heard it to chew your food properly

 

A lump that size would be US #4 Buckshot. A touch bigger than AAA.

[al4x]

I'd suggest that didn't come from eating game if it was the cause at all

[SneakyD]

Large fishing weight maybe.

[David BASC]

The only other one I vaguely recall was from a child that got hold of some shot, possibly for re-loading gear, and ate it. In this case there was a significant and fatal reaction, but as I say, tragic though this is its incredibly rare.

 

No idea what the shot size was, but larger shot is used for deer and pig hunting in Scandinavia.

 

It will be interesting to see what cases, if any, may be uncovered by the LAG.

 

David

[al4x]

The issue with Shot David is that it is pretty hard to digest, birds have an issue obviously due to using grit but we are substantially different. If you look at other means of lead poisoning they usually involve far smaller particles or dust, a friend works for a sash window renovation company and they use masks and have regular blood tests its that serious an issue. Occasionally they will have raised levels and have to do other work till they drop. The main point is though lead shot has such a small surface area and our gut isn't designed to grind them up so the risk from a single piece is very small and probably someone clutching at straws for a reason for the diagnosis

[David BASC]

Indeed, old (lead) paint is a big problem with lead poisoning, as are batteries too.

 

I agree one small bit of no6 is unlikely to make you fall ill, and its my understanding that shot can and does pass through us well enough, but can get stuck, and if enough builds up can cause clinical effects, but as I said on another thread, much if not all of the lead contamination of shot can be removed in the preparation of the meat.

 

It will be interesting what the LAG come up with.

 

David

[al4x]

looks like there is a gap in the market for a lead detector for game meat

[Scully]

Large fishing weight maybe.

This was my immediate thought.Neither case however,constitutes a case for the banning of lead shot.

[SneakyD]

Neither case however,constitutes a case for the banning of lead shot.

I agree 100%

[Bazooka Joe]

Neither case however,constitutes a case for the banning of lead shot.

 

Agree, evidence is pretty thin.

 

Be interesting to find out what percentage of the population actually does eat game...

[David BASC]

An increasing number of people in the UK eat game, this is evidenced by the increase in game sales over the last 15 year not least of all due to the efforts of the CA and BASC to promote game more widely, which have proven to be successful.

 

David

[poontang]

 

 

It will be interesting what the LAG come up with.

 

 

 

Good grief, is that still going?

[David BASC]

Certainly is, the last update on the site was on the 23rd July.

 

I suspect many of the MeP's that have been contacted will be keeping an eye on the LAG and the reports from the Primary Evidence Group.

 

At the same time, I suspect DEFRA will be keeping an eye on ECHA.

 

As far as I can see, regardless of the noises that WWT et al made earlier in the year, there is no will within Parliament to ban lead shot in the UK and that’s what we want to maintain.

 

We have to wait and see what ECHA does next, if anything, but despite all the lobbying that we’ve been encouraged to do, the MeP’s will have little or no say in the matter, as the European issue is not political but purely technical.

 

All updates on ECHA will be on the BASC web site here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/key_issues.cfm/cid/CCB9D91A-9217-4238-9F6BDF36E4525FB7

 

Best wishes to all

 

David

[poontang]

Certainly is, the last update on the site was on the 23rd July.

 

I suspect many of the MeP's that have been contacted will be keeping an eye on the LAG and the reports from the Primary Evidence Group.

 

At the same time, I suspect DEFRA will be keeping an eye on ECHA.

 

As far as I can see, regardless of the noises that WWT et al made earlier in the year, there is no will within Parliament to ban lead shot in the UK and that’s what we want to maintain.

 

We have to wait and see what ECHA does next, if anything, but despite all the lobbying that we’ve been encouraged to do, the MeP’s will have little or no say in the matter, as the European issue is not political but purely technical.

 

All updates on ECHA will be on the BASC web site here: http://www.basc.org.uk/en/media/key_issues.cfm/cid/CCB9D91A-9217-4238-9F6BDF36E4525FB7

 

Best wishes to all

 

David

 

David,

 

I've lost the point of what exactly the LAG are trying to achieve now.

 

It seems to have been dragging on for what seems an eternity, and not actually getting anywhere, it's over a year behind schedule and it seems to me that it's lost all sense of urgency and any dynamic that it may have had.

 

The whole thing just seems a bit of a shambles.

 

When the WWT leaked minutes were published BASC were straight onto it saying that the WWT were way out of their league and shouldn't be talking about human health issues.

 

Yet we look at the Primary Evidence sub group assessing the risk to human health on the LAG and it's Debbie Pain (WWT) and Rhys Green (RSPB). I mean you couldn't make it up!!

 

Surely if these people are out of their league talking about human health issues, they certainly shouldn't be assessing the evidence on the LAG? Let's be honest, they're hardly going to be unbiased in their assessments.