Gozzy Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Wild fowler is there anything you arnt good at , I'm in total awe of your capability , joinery fibreglass miliing cad design etc. mods is there an award for best thread ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
la bala Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 Wild fowler is there anything you arnt good at , I'm in total awe of your capability , joinery fibreglass miliing cad design etc. mods is there an award for best thread ever what he said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 ... Thanks! I'm pleased you guys like the thread... I'll try and get some decent pictures of the machining side to share with you. Just the small issue of a power supply still to resolve! A week to go until payday though, so i can start looking into it a little more seriously... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 II`ll try and get some pics up for you. Where will the gun sit in the crutch? Are you determined to build a breach loader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 II`ll try and get some pics up for you. Where will the gun sit in the crutch? Are you determined to build a breach loader? I need to attribute the correct material properties to each component and find the balance point, from there i can workout how much force will be required to maneuver the gun once onboard in relation to the crutch location and hopefully come up with an appropriate location that gives a suitable amount of the gun inside the 'cockpit'. What makes you ask? Regarding building a breach loader, yes is the short answer... I don't really fancy poking rods down the barrel to retrieve the shot and charge in the very likely event of not pulling the trigger. A breach loader seems a lot easier to load, unload, reload(unlikely requirement i know but possible) clean and maintain along with being safer to operate. What makes you prefer a muzzle loader? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 What a fantastic project to date! Now, a non engineer's daft question, how will you make the barrel? Will it be steel tube welded to the "workings", surely not drilled solid steel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) The barrel will be made from cold drawn seamless tube. It's dimensionally very accurate and structurally very strong, typically what high pressure hydraulic rams are made from. I'll turn down the outer diameter to give a taper and for the last 400mm towards the breach ill turn it parallel with a 0.5mm step to give an acurate and clean surface. Then I'll bore out a larger diameter length of steel to match the barrel OD (within +0.01mm or so), heat it up to get it to expand, then slide it over the barrel to form a sleeve around the chamber meaning I don't have to use such heavy gauge steel for the whole construction and there will be no seams on the inside of the barrel. There will also be no air gap inbetween for expansion or corrosion to form... That's the current plan anyway... Edited March 18, 2013 by Wildfowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Sounds good to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 As we have discussed previously, I`m just throwing in some suggestions that you might not have thought about based on 40 years punting experience. Please feel free to disregard them as you see fit. Generally, having as little of the gun in the cockpit as is possible is to be preferred. With guns using the design of breech which you propose there are two options for the position of the gun crutch. One is in front of the breech reinforcing which,allowing for the weight of the breech coupled with the rearward position of the trunnions and the issues connected with them, as previously discussed,will almost certainly, vectors of forces being what they are, result in a gun that rears up at the muzzle when fired. The alternative would be at some point along the breech reinforcing which, for cosmetic reasons, would normally be tapered. If it is, you would be attempting to fire the gun off an angled surface where the slightest movement fore or aft would alter the point of aim. If it is`nt then proximity to the trunnions and run back on recoil are areas that need to be carefully considered. With either position you need to get it right or the recoil will smash the gun crutch. I don`t agree with much of what Payne Galwey wrote, but he and I are in complete agreement on this point. Muzzle loaders are easier and cheaper to build,are lighter(an important consideration if you have to carry the gun all by yourself.)Safer, shoot better, and are generally far less likely to go out of order than a breech loader. If you have access to a copy of any of RPG`s books, have a read of what else he has to say on the subject. He is absolutely correct. Good luck with whatever you decide to build. I`m quite sure you`ll make an oustanding job of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 The barrel will be made from cold drawn seamless tube. It's dimensionally very accurate and structurally very strong, typically what high pressure hydraulic rams are made from. I'll turn down the outer diameter to give a taper and for the last 400mm towards the breach ill turn it parallel with a 0.5mm step to give an acurate and clean surface. Then I'll bore out a larger diameter length of steel to match the barrel OD (within +0.01mm or so), heat it up to get it to expand, then slide it over the barrel to form a sleeve around the chamber meaning I don't have to use such heavy gauge steel for the whole construction and there will be no seams on the inside of the barrel. There will also be no air gap inbetween for expansion or corrosion to form... That's the current plan anyway... OK, as a very non engineer I think I get what you mean. Will the joint be purely "friction" in that the heated steel will shrink to grip the barrel or will you weld or make some other method of permanent connection? What will be the internal diameter or bore of the barrel and its length? Will you make/buy cartridges or use another method of loading? How many ounces/pounds of lead will be discharged? All these and so many other questions, I'm fascinated! I'd love to see the faces at the proof house when you turn up with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Mudpatten, I appreciate any thoughts... Anyone is more than welcome to share theirs that's how we learn!!!!! I don't want loads of gun in the cockpit that's for sure which is why I want to find the balance point. I'm not the biggest guy so I either need a light muzzle end or enough inside the cockpit to act as a lever to enable me to manoeuvre the gun. Once I know where that point is ill be in a better position to draw some conclusions. Point taken about the gun crutch sitting on a taper though... If you look at the 3d model there is a straight section for it to locate but I'll check that it will sit right on the model! Back to muzzle loaders... As for cheaper and easier to build, I'm sure there is merit in that argument but that certainly isn't something that I'll base my design around. From the outset I wanted to make the best that I practically could, be that more expensive or difficult... As for lighter, I'm not sure by what degree, maybe a kilo or so because of the brach screw but the rest is essentially the same. So in total about 2.5%. The only way I can see it being safer is due to the chances of the breech plug failing, but these are minute compared to the potential risks of poking rods down a loaded barrel IMO. What makes you say they shoot 'better'? And what is less likely to go out of order. As always I'm interested to hear the logic behind people's pov... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaniel Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 Wasnt there a guy from the Devon Wildfowlers who built a punt gun I guess there maybe members on here who could point you in the right direction if it helps Ginger from the GWA as a punt gun but not sure if he knows anything about building one from scratch, might be worth an email to them Great project Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted March 18, 2013 Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) All newcomers to punt gunning, to quote RPG "Rush open mouthed after a breach loader." Nothing new there. That`s your choice and I happily respect it. I know of four punt guns which have been recently manufactured for discerning punt gunners, all of them on their second or third outfit so beginning to understand what works afloat and what does`nt. Three of them are muzzle loaders. Once you`ve got past all the shiny metal and moving parts a front loader simply makes more sense. You say that you need sufficient of the gun inside the punt to enable it to work like a lever. Respectfully, the only thing that you`ll need to adjust in a single punt is the gun`s elevation for which you will use either a screw elevator or a rising plane. You won`t be doing much that requires the gun to be levered because you have`nt got three hands, one to propel the punt,the other to move the gun sideways and a third to pull the lanyard. At best you`ll set up the gun in a central position and simply aim the whole punt. Ergo no real need for a muzzle light gun. Again, respectfully, the absolute worst case scenario with a punt gun. Under harsh fowling conditions there is a premium on robust simplicity. To twist your own point of view slightly, I`m sure you don`t want to build a breech loader simply because it`s harder to make and more expensive. On average, dependent upon bore size etc,a M/L gun would be anything up 25lbs. lighter than a B/L. I`m not sure why your concerned about pokeing rods down a loaded barrel. All ramrod furniture is made of brass so there is no chance of a spark. By simply removing the percussion cap all you`re simply working on is a steel tube. The function of a worm screw was perfected about four hundred years ago and is hardly taxing. With no cartridges or chambers there is far less gas loss in a M/L than a B/L and a skilled engineer (You!) can "relief bore" a M/L. The ignition on most B/L guns, usually a .32 blank, is far too severe and often causes the gun to "crack" and recoil severley. By contrast the relatively gentle ignition of a percussion cap across the base of the charge generates significantly less recoil and gives a better pattern. With a M/L there are almost no moving parts, apart from the lock. Even if that breaks you can still set the gun off with a sharp tap on the percusion cap with a toffee hammer carried for that purpose. If any one of the complex hinges or lock work should fail on a B/L.- you`re stuffed. I wish you every success with whatever you decide to build. Edited March 18, 2013 by mudpatten Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 in your first paragraph you've made a number of assumptions, namely that i'm a 'newcomer' to punt gunning??? Perhaps i dont have 40 years experience like yourself but at 26 that would be a little difficult! Respectfully, that still doesn't mean that i have no idea! You refer to four 'discerning punt gunners' that have recently had new gun made. 3 of which are muzzle loaders, which depending on how you look at it there's 25% of people prefer a breach loader, 25% didn't like their first muzzle loader, 75% are too stuck in their ways to change from a muzzle loader, the possibilities are endless! Without putting it into context by providing a background of their previous guns, financial situations (could they afford to have a breach loader made) this point is of little relevance. I'm not sure of the relevance of your second paragraph either. For a single punt i would agree but i have built a double punt??? r.e. your point about a muzzle light gun, that was the point i was getting at previously, not a trait that i want! Regarding your comment about 'harsh fowling conditions' in which particular scenario would a muzzle loader out strip a breach loader due to its simplistic design? Again, i ask to what reason would it be 25lb lighter? I appreciate the use of a screw rod was 'perfected' 400 years ago but more recently the loading and unloading method of guns has been perfected further... by use of a cartridge! Again, to assume that i will use a .32 blank and therefore will have a harsh ignition is incorrect. As i will manufacture all of the cartridges i plan to make various designs for different primes and pattern each one, this is the advantage of my situation. So what additional moving parts does a breach loader have over a muzzle loader? the only part i can see is the firing pin... which with my design, if all else fails i can hit the end of it as it comes clear out of the action??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) OK, as a very non engineer I think I get what you mean. Will the joint be purely "friction" in that the heated steel will shrink to grip the barrel or will you weld or make some other method of permanent connection? What will be the internal diameter or bore of the barrel and its length? Will you make/buy cartridges or use another method of loading? How many ounces/pounds of lead will be discharged? All these and so many other questions, I'm fascinated! I'd love to see the faces at the proof house when you turn up with this. Hi Chris, No, i'll certainly use the friction to my advantage but the main element of shrinking it on is to avoid any gaps between the 2 elements and therefore reduce the potential for weaknesses and corrosion. I will either braise the 2 together depending on how good the fit is, or i will machine a taper on each piece to form a V in the closing face to receive a weld, then i can machine it back flush so it will look like one piece of steel. The internal diameter will be 1 1'4 (31.75mm) barrel length will be c10ft (3m) i'll pattern it and modify where necessary. I plan to make the cartridges from solid brass, that way they will last forever and i can machine them so they are a snug push fit into the breech to reduce pressure build up... it will discharge 8-10oz as standard but i might push it up to 12oz depending on what the pattern is like... I'm happy to answer any questions! Edited due to my typing being awful! Edited March 18, 2013 by Wildfowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudpatten Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 From the outset, my only concern has been that, given the amount of time and skill that has gone into the construction of your outfit that you should, at least, be aware of some aspects of punt gunning that may not be immediately apparent to someone at the start of their punting career. I just happen to have been born and grown up in area rich in punting history and to have almost accidentally ended up as the receptacle of the combined knowledge of generations of gunners. It is sometimes said of specialists in a given subject "When he dies, all that knowledge will go with him." I`m just trying to ensure that, in part, it does`nt. As I`ve frequently said, I`m just offering alternatives for your consideration. I absolutely expect you to disregard them. Most people do. At first. On a more relevent note. You can see where I live,if you ever want to pop down here I can show you a large collection of punts and punt guns from which you are free to take any dimensions or plans that you wish. No point in reinventing the wheel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fowlerwidow Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 I have been watching this post for a while now and would like to say well done! This has been such an interesting thread to read. I can't believe that you have built a punt from scratch and now intend to do the same with a gun! I take my hat off to you as I could never do anything like this! I wasn't sure if I had missed a post but couldn't seem to find one if the punt finished? Is it still a working progress or have you now finished? Will you be able to make a gun by the next shooting season? I have no idea how long such an amazing project would take! All the best and I look forward to the next instalment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 Hello Mudpatten, Please don't think that i completely disregard your comments, i wouldn't bother replying if i wasn't interested in your thoughts... And please don't think that because i challenge or question what you write is because i think i know better or that i think you are wrong, i simply want to understand the detail and logic behind the things you say. Post 289 for example... the more detail and hard facts the better! Regarding your comment about 'harsh fowling conditions' in which particular scenario would a muzzle loader out strip a breach loader due to its simplistic design? Again, i ask to what reason would it be 25lb lighter? So what additional moving parts does a breach loader have over a muzzle loader? the only part i can see is the firing pin... which with my design, if all else fails i can hit the end of it as it comes clear out of the action??? I'll hopefully be down your way some time in the summer, i might well take you up on your offer! it would be good to put a face to the name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Bb Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 I'm happy to answer any questions! Thanks for the comprehensive answers to date. Next.... Is the gun fixed to the punt or is there some kind of recoil absorbing mechanism? Given that it's 3m long, I'm surprised that the ID is "only" 1 1/4" bearing in mind that a 12 gauge is 3/4", also I'd have thought that you'd have fired a little more that 8oz, again bearing in mind that the 12 gauge fires >1oz. I guess you'll be using normal shot, <#6 and presumably steel or other non-lead alternative? So, you gently paddle up towards a flock of birds aiming the punt/gun combination at them (I'm assuming that you aim the gun by manoeuvring the punt and not by "aiming" the gun separately), adjust elevation (?) and pull the string. What range will you be shooting at and how many birds will you expect to kill? I also assume that once they've heard the first bang that's the last you'll see of them that morning! Again, thanks for the fascinating thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) The breach end of the gun sits in a gun crutch but is able to move forward and back and pivot (not that you use any of these movements greatly) the muzzle end sits on a support across the bow, depending on your setup, either the crutch or muzzle support can be adjusted to change elevation. The gun isn't hard fixed to the punt, the recoil is taken by a breaching rope attached to the trunions on the gun and looped through the hole in the stem of the punt. The length doesn't differ greatly between diameter, my gun will be that long to get the muzzle close to the end of the punt so when discharged it doesn't blacken the deck. For the marsh I shoot to fire huge shots every time would be a waste, so 8-12oz suits me well. If I find it isn't big enough I can make a bigger one! I plan to use BBs in non toxic shot. I want to load various types of shot and conduct some studies into how they perform in terms of pattern and penetration. Killing range 60-90 yards depending on charge and shot used. You've pretty much got the method... I'll be shooting mainly at packs of widgeon and teal maybe with the odd mallard in there, I'd hope to get 4-6 with each shot maybe a red letter day delivering 15 but it's so dependant on the weather, the density iof birds ,how 'easy' they are to stalk up to... There are so many variables which is part if the appeal for me. If you want to shoot lots of birds, punt gunning is NOT the sport! A friend of mine punts the marsh I will and had 2 shots all of last season. I could shoot a lot more with my shoulder gun but that isn't what it's about... And your right, once you've had a shot that's pretty much it, but if the weather is hard enough you might get a second, but I certainly won't... I'll take my shot and leave them in piece... Edited March 20, 2013 by Wildfowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 20, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 (edited) I have been watching this post for a while now and would like to say well done! This has been such an interesting thread to read. I can't believe that you have built a punt from scratch and now intend to do the same with a gun! I take my hat off to you as I could never do anything like this! I wasn't sure if I had missed a post but couldn't seem to find one if the punt finished? Is it still a working progress or have you now finished? Will you be able to make a gun by the next shooting season? I have no idea how long such an amazing project would take! All the best and I look forward to the next instalment! This is my wife's sense of humour!!! There are a couple of catches that I haven't put in the punt yet and therefore she's clasing it as an unfinished project... I can assure you they will be attached before the good fishing arrives! As for the gun I'll have it finished as soon as I'm allowed to spend the money on a power supply for my (very reasonably priced) machines! In all seriousness, this is the lady that lets me out to work on the punt and helps me to do those tricky bits. (Apparently she's now in pigeonwatch as this is the only way she can get any sense out of me!) Edited March 20, 2013 by Wildfowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 20, 2013 Report Share Posted March 20, 2013 Keep up the good work W.F! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 This thread continues to impress. Have chokes been mentioned yet ? I remember reading about chokes designed for riot guns, more accurately they were shot spreaders, intended to make a vertically short wide pattern so as not to waste shot above or below a group of rioters. If you are making a breech loader would a choke of this type be useful ? The ducks will all be on the same level. I seem to remember they had a slight oval shape with a pinched middle portion, like a figure 8 but not pinched in so far. Your steel shot in large sizes might just need a slight oval instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildfowler Posted March 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 I have thought about chokes but couldn't see any real benefit. I did toy with the idea of making a kind of multi choke arrangement to see what effect different chokes had on the pattern (the same as any other shotgun obviously but to what extent when applied to a punt gun) and if none have a beneficial effect I can screw in a 'cylinder' choke and I've not lost anything. However, your 'shot spreader' does sound interesting, how beneficial it would be I don't know but sounds like it would be worth some investigation! I'm aware of a few multiple barrelled punt guns, set up in various configurations so as to give wider spreads and also ones with millisecond delays so the first barrel got them on the water and the delayed barrel got more as they lifted... I'll have a dig about in the Internet to see if I can find any info on your spreader choke arrangement though! Thanks for the thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TIGHTCHOKE Posted March 30, 2013 Report Share Posted March 30, 2013 (edited) W.F. This thread just gets better! I remember seeing details of the shot spreader, you could orientate it either width ways to tackle a group of rioters or vertically to deal with a single person. Basically it looked like a tube with the out opening squashed to open out two opposed sides! Good luck, this will make a great book one day! T.C. Edited March 30, 2013 by TIGHTCHOKE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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