Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 After reading the thread regarding "lack of knowledge" I decided to raise my head above the parapet and put my tuppence worth in, thought I would create a new thread as the other one was losing way (apologies to admin/mod team if this is uncorrect). Now..... As a former FEO, I can see where the opinion comes that there is a perception of lack of knowledge within the shooting community (certainly from the Firearms Legislation angle). The problem I found is that the majority of people (although not all) don't read or know the legislation, but rely on experience of others, views of self confessed experts and the application pack guidance notes. And when people do read the legislation they have a tendency to "cherry pick", it's only human nature but people do tend to seize on an article to prove a point but don't take into account that there are usually other articles that impact on the view they have. Also, what many people are not aware of, and Police Forces have to bear some responsibility for not publicising the fact, is that the Guidance Notes also contain items of legislation not in the Firearms orders, these are pieces of law that are covered by the all encompassing FAC condition of "And any other conditions that the Chief Constable deems appropriate". I would guess that the vast majority of shooters don't have a copy of the guidance notes, either electronic or hard copy. Which is a shame as the guidance notes are a good practical and (more) plain english way to explain the Orders. When I first started as an FEO, the one thing that I found astounding was the reluctance of many shooters to contact their FEO and to ask questions. Whilst the FEO is part of the application and legaslative process, he/she is also the public face of the Police firearms team and is ultimately a public servant. Shooters (new/old and prospective) SHOULD be able to contact the FEO and ask questions, and, if the FEO doesn't know the answer they are best placed to find out or point you in the right direction. The only stupid question is the one that wasn't asked. Your FEO is not out to get you (or shouldn't be anyway), your FEO should be applying the law in an even handed and fair way, regardless of their personal opinions and views. And, your FEO is a vastly under-used resource of information, a quick phonecall or an email is all it should take to get your questions answered. Many of these issues around knowledge seem to be historical/cultural and could be solved really easily by a bit of outreach from the Police, a wee bit of engagement between Police and shooting public would go along way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poontang Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I'll agree with that 100%. My FEO's a cracking bloke, and if I ever have a legal question he's my first port of call. My SGC was due for renewal at the end of July. Essex police are supposed to send the renewal form 3 months in advance. For some reason I never received mine, but a quick call to my FEO at the beginning of July and the the form arrived the next day. Two weeks later he popped round and collected the form and fee, and 10 days later my new certificate hit the mat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amazed Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Nice post I find it hard to get hold of my feo (he's semi retired) But there is always someone in the office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiffy Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 i had a question relating to key storage and phoned my firearms dept and was put onto an feo, he was as it happens the gentleman who visited me a couple of weeks later for my home visit. on the phone he was very helpfull and answered my questions. as for his visit, i wont name him but i was told that he was not the nicest of blokes and have been told that by several people. well i found him wonderfull, yes he wasnt laughing and joking but hes doing a serious job... and my home visit went far better than i expected, or at least i think it did... depends if i get an sgc on my doormat in the next week or two Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Sadly the FEO of old,usually a retired policeman,and a shooter will eventually become a memory.It seems from what people are reporting that the role is slowly being taken over by the police ARU units,and while this may save money a lot of these officers may not shoot recreationally and will not be available for a quick call to clarify a point,similarly if the role is subbed out to g4s(don't laugh it is a possibility)i cannot see them wanting to have a chat, or pop round to clarify a point,as they will be on a budget. But for all the talk about where do you get information,it is the same as any other sport,hobby etc,you buy the book,join the club,speak to people. ultimately if you are unsure of any legislation you can write/email/phone your firearms department for the definitive answer,i know no one wants to,but if you are that unsure and think you may break the law then swallow your pride,it's better to ask before the event than after. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scully Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 My current FEO is a top bloke(but he would be 'cos he's a shooter!)and has helped me out several times;if it hadn't been for him I wouldn't have two S1 shotguns. My former one was ok,but once tried to lower my ammo amount simply because he thought my 'allowance' was 'rather a lot'.I told him I shot 'rather a lot'.He first visited me about 12 years after I first applied for FAC/SGC!I had no security check up or anything!Don't think that would happen nowadays. Personally I think there should be more FEO's,and not less,as is currently being mooted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 One thing you do notice about shooters is that whilst we have our chancers (as all communities do), by a country mile shooters are more "law abiding" than the average joe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) i had a question for my feo wich is a part of the ARU and had to leave a mesage and when i got 3 diferent ansers all controdicting each other wich nerly left me in trubble Edited August 14, 2012 by fruitloop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ordnance Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 My FEO is always helpful. And has absolutely no interest in firearms but it doesn't stop him doing his job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 i had a question for my feo wich is a part of the ARU and had to leave a mesage and when i got 3 diferent ansers all controdicting each other wich nerly left me in trubble That is unacceptable and you should complain in writing. I know people don't want to make waves but sometimes raising the issue is the only way that firearms branches become aware that it actually exists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) the feo knows nothing about the subject thay are working in and when you try to contact them its near on imposable. especialay with this wonderfull 101 number no direct number to them the first week was yes land is cleared .then a week later its not ?? Edited August 14, 2012 by fruitloop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welsh1 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 the feo knows nothing about the subject thay are working in and when you try to contact them its near on imposable. especialay with this wonderfull 101 number no direct number to them the first week was yes land is cleared .then a week later its not ?? Can you not email your firearms department direct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 not if you want a reply Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 the feo knows nothing about the subject thay are working in and when you try to contact them its near on imposable. especialay with this wonderfull 101 number no direct number to them the first week was yes land is cleared .then a week later its not ?? Is that the new ARV method of firearms enquiries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) yes the officer that viseted me had the side arm on and in uniform .ask a questions and got told ,,,eeerrrmmm ill find out and get back to you!!!!! 2weeks later i called them. and got told. ill let them know you called Edited August 14, 2012 by fruitloop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 yes the officer that viseted me had the side arm on and in uniform .ask a questions and got told ,,,eeerrrmmm ill find out and get back to you!!!!! 2weeks later i called them. and got told. ill let them know you called You seriously need to complain, and if you get no joy then go to your MP's surgery and complain to them. Or if you are in a shooting organisation give them a call, thats why you pay your subs. The police are not only applying the law, but as public servants they are providing a service to the public (in this case firearms licensing), if they are failing to provide that service then something needs done. You will find that this role has been dumped onto the ARV's (due to a bright idea by some Super), these guys probably have neither training or interest in the subject and are just going through the motions to keep themselves right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 think you are right.i know that there over streched as they have not even prosesed decembers renewals yet the last time a frend got in toch with them he was told to stop calling and let them get on with there job. he is only 9 months over due ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I agree this is what should happen and may in some areas - I have a new FEO, untried and untested but he seems a nice bloke. My previous FEO was a gentleman, a sportsman and I'd have been happy to call him a friend - he retired before i could. My new FEO said that as I had asked for more guns on my renewal and the cabinet only held five, that might be a problem. I pointed out that I had already one more gun on my cert than there was cabinet space for and told him that it was my responsibility to keep the firearms secure and I would not buy more than I could store in a cabinet but he could always emphasise that in my renewal grant, should he wish to grant my renewal that is. My old FEO would not even have asked the question - just told me I; need to upgrade when the capacity was about to be exceeded and before I bought another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fruitloop Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) that was the last time i seen them when i had a new safe fitted and was told y did i get a bigger one??as they prefer you to have 2/3 smaller ones all over the house .sorry but i have only the one place to put the SAFE not cabinet Edited August 14, 2012 by fruitloop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beeredup Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 my Feo is a cracking bloke and one of the first things he did when he cam earound for my interview was give me his mobile number Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livefast123 Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Our force have subbed out the grants and variations to the ARV's and the renewals to the beat managers, now I'm all for savings etc but I would prefer to be talking to somebody who knew the difference between a .38 Special and a .338 Lapua Magnum and actually had an interest in our sport. An interesting thought would be that if the new style of FEO know nothing of shooting exept the training they recieve then they should stick to the letter of the guidence and not come up with the rediculous conditions turning up now? My previous FEO was a real gent....until he was the victim of cost cutting Edited August 14, 2012 by Livefast123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Very decent of you pastiebap to stick your head up, I think the most common gripe is a lack of service and consistency, waiting 9+months for a renewal....mentoring conditions......acceptable calibres....etc Why aren't the guidance notes publicly available? FEO seems less complained about FLO's what does the typical FLO look like what real experience do they have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon R Posted August 14, 2012 Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 I had a visit from our Firearms lad last night - licence renewal. Works for Greater Manchester, who are top drawer. He is knowledgeable and helpful. I have not come across one member of staff who wasn't helpful. You can phone them, e-mail them or write - results are the same. I downloaded my own copy of the Guidance Notes some time ago, so that I would know what exactly is expected of licence holders. I have to say this is a legitimate thread - whereas the other one - referred to - is a wind up, unless I am sadly mistaken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 Very decent of you pastiebap to stick your head up, I think the most common gripe is a lack of service and consistency, waiting 9+months for a renewal....mentoring conditions......acceptable calibres....etc Why aren't the guidance notes publicly available? FEO seems less complained about FLO's what does the typical FLO look like what real experience do they have? The guidance notes are readily available and can be downloaded (I keep a copy on my laptop for my own reference), however firearms departments seem to treat them as a holy grail, oft quoted but FAC holders/applicants are never steered in the direction of where to pick up a copy. The prevailing opinion seems to be "You want the guns, you can find out for yourself". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pastiebap Posted August 14, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 14, 2012 my Feo is a cracking bloke and one of the first things he did when he cam earound for my interview was give me his mobile number After once getting a phonecall at 23:00 on a saturday night (asking my opinion on replacing a .223 with a .22-250), I stopped giving my mobile number and steered more people towards my (work) email address Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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