BASC condemns Royal Mail gun ban proposals.

[David BASC]

BASC has condemned plans by Royal Mail to ban the transportation of guns and their component parts.

 

These have been managed for many years in a safe and secure way with no evidence of firearms or their components falling into the wrong hands.

 

Royal Mail says it is consulting on changes to its terms and conditions that will ensure that they are consistent with relevant firearms legislation. Royal Mail is proposing that all firearms, including guns for sporting use, as well as their component parts, are prohibited under its terms and conditions.

 

The association will fight the proposals, which are outlined in a consultation document launched this week.

 

If the proposals go ahead, consumers and traders will no longer be able to use Royal Mail postal services to send firearms or component parts.

 

 

More info here:

 

http://www.basc.org....C47CA97F53F0587

 

David

[BerettaSV10]

Thats not good, how far will it extend to you may want a O ring which may be worth 10p but because its of a gun they won't accept it for posting yet the same O ring could be used on some thing unrelated to shooting equipment the P.O will deliver it. Crazy if they gone down to that level of components.

 

Don't see any problem in sending other accessories that are not controlled by the fire arms regulations, could also put paid to buying and selling via post on the forums.

Edited August 17, 2012 by BerettaSV10

[al4x]

Its an interesting one and being in transport I can see both sides. The sending actual firearms is fair enough to leave that to the parcel force side of the business but everything else seems excessive. What they are concerned about will ultimately be losses and theft, they can fob off customers with most losses but firearms and some components they potentially will have to answer police questions. Ultimately that cost far more than they would make to my mind it shows concern over their own security more than anything, especially in a day and age where they seem to be subbing out more and more

[HDAV]

Interesting point but what makes a "sculpted piece of wood" a gun stock? I t means they will be able to elude any claims for loss or damage but these aren't letter being sent to the Shetlands or Hebrides.... but more profitable oversize deliveries?

[VicW]

This is another example of a decision not being thought through and is paralleled by E-Bay's decision some time ago not to allow certain gun parts for sale.

 

If this goes ahead many parts suppliers will turn away completely from Royal Mail and set up deals with couriers to handle all their parcels and packets.

 

E-Bay decided that chokes were 'lethal' gun parts and banned them.I pointed out to them that they were still allowing stocks and forends to be advertised along with recoil pads etc. Their response was the threat of my being banned which was followed up by an email asking if I was satisfied with their handling of the situation!!

 

I was tempted to try advertising a choke as 'a shot restriction tube'.

 

Vic.

[Thunderbird]

Ebay's policy seems really weird as some parts can be sold and some can't be. Maybe they're just working their way through it and will end up banning everything.

 

The trouble is ebay (and probably Royal Mail) make enough money already and don't care about upsetting the gun trade and private gun owners.

 

All they want is to avoid the media story when some nutter goes postal and it can be shown said nutter bought a gun part on ebay, then the headline will read '[insert place] gun murderer amassed horrific arsenal from ebay'

 

OWTTE.

Edited August 17, 2012 by Thunderbird

[wymberley]

Tend to agree with al4x, covering the guns and component parts but excluding consumable items - takes care of the 'O' rings, etc, etc.

 

However, apart from any exclusions, I was going to say that this is one BASC won't win as you can bet your bottom dollar if this does happen that at exactly that moment, Parcel Force will be classed as a secure carrier or whatever the term is and start charging handsomely for the privilege and plead they're offering the same but improved service.

[Vipa]

To be honest, I stopped using Royal Mail or Parcel Force a long time ago. It is cheaper and far more efficient to use Interparcel or Parcel 2 Go... you then have access to all the big carriers, some who are secure such as TNT but also UPS, Fedex etc.. almost always cheaper than RM, collect the parcel from your door and guarantee next day delivery!

[al4x]

Only TNT from that list will ship firearms and component parts though Vipa and I'm fairly sure not via a re seller you would need to have an account and be a rfd,

 

as for being secure carriers really don't believe all you read, everybody looses things in the overnight carrier game

Edited August 17, 2012 by al4x

[HDAV]

TNT have a deal with the GTA (Gun Trade Association) and you have to be a member BASC i think had the deal with Parcel force, it would be interesting to know what the big importers do Edgars, GMK, BWM etc I'm sure one of the many RFD members can let us know who delivers the stock....

[David BASC]

RFD to RFD is no problem, TNT or Parcel Force , and quite probably others will carry.

 

David

[HDAV]

 

 

Everyone that feels RM is wrong should fill out the cover sheet and email zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com with responses:

 

Can anyone turn the .pdf into a word doc please (David)

Edited August 17, 2012 by HDAV

[scobydog]

Only TNT from that list will ship firearms and component parts though Vipa and I'm fairly sure not via a re seller you would need to have an account and be a rfd,

 

as for being secure carriers really don't believe all you read, everybody looses things in the overnight carrier game

 

When i was a civil servant, a load of computers and printers being sent to our office by 1 of the carriers mentioned went missing and was never recovered. These were in cubic meter cages so not exactly easy to lose. so a gun part or firearm could easily dissapear .

[drut]

Just sent e-mail to Royal Mail but AFAIK they tried something similar a few years ago,looks like they have taken an anti shooting sports stance for some time.

[Livefast123]

I've just emailed them to voice my disdain at their discriminatory policy, as should everyone on this forum. Can you imagine the hassle and expense if we have to RFD anything we want to buy to go shooting.

[joe1978]

I've just sent my response too. It took 3 minutes max!!

 

Joe

[HDAV]

Parcel Farce: http://www.parcelforce.com/help-information/sending-advice/prohibitions-and-restrictions

 

ARMS AND AMMUNITION

 

All firearms including: imitations and antiques; paint-ball or toy guns; taser guns; air rifles, air pistols, components of firearms and all other items similar to, or resembling the foregoing are prohibited. All ammunition (including components thereof) and airgun pellets are also prohibited.

 

Apart from Royal mail are there any couriers that will ship guns, component parts or pellets from individual to individual?

[taximan]

Royal Mail is the only one now that will still ship guns and parts for private individuals, all the others require a business account or you need to be an RFD. THis is why it is vital to e-mail your replies through.

Basically if you shoot anything these proposals will affect you. Businesses that rely on mail order will be very badly affected, and probably go bust.

 

We need to fight this ASAP, and also e-mail Ofcom the postal regulators

[Graham M]

Received this from Chambers this morning -

 

 

The Royal Mail are proposing changes to ban the posting of firearms, air guns and component parts. This will affect all of our customers if these proposals go through and may result in the closure of T W Chambers and many other UK based gun shops as there is no other alternative service to ship your orders.

Please see the Royal Mail link below and respond to it before the 17th Sept 2012. As customers who rely on the Royal Mail to ship your orders to you, then you would be entitled to respond to these proposals. Overseas customers please also respond.

Please email your responses to zoe.allchorn@royalmail.com and cc it also to martin.anderson@royalmail.com

 

Link to Royal Mail proposals, http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Proposals_to_prohibit_Firearms_from_postal_services.pdf

 

Thank You.

 

T W Chambers & Co

 

 

 

Sent off my email to Ms Allchorn and had this reply -

 

 

Please note - I am on leave between the 11th August and the 25th August. Martin Anderson is covering for me in my absence, his contact number is 07435 769054.

Thanks.

 

 

Talk about not wanting to get involved.

 

 

G.M.

[poontang]

Might be worth e-mailing Norman Lamb MP.

 

He's the minister with responsibility for postal services. I don't know much about him, but he did vote AGAINST the hunting ban...so not your typical Lib Dem.

 

http://normanlamb.org.uk/wp/contact-me-2/

[taximan]

Here is the link in full

 

http://www.royalmail.com/sites/default/files/Proposals_to_prohibit_Firearms_from_postal_services.pdf

 

 

[Livefast123]

I sent this letter to my MP, part of it was written by somebody on the BBS and I just added my own touch to it.

 

Dear Mr Penrose,

 

As a law abiding and enthusiastic sports shooter I feel that I must bring your attention to the absurd proposal made by the Royal Mail that they are going to cease carrying firearms, air rifles and any item relating to them. I feel that the proposals are ill thought out and will be discriminatory to a group that is participating in a perfectly legal sport and one that won us a gold medal in the Olympics.There are many levels that I disagree with the proposals on, these are the main points:-

 

a) The proposals are exceedingly similar to the 2004 proposals that were flatly rejected by Postcom- http://stakeholders....s/post/1441.pdf Postcomm's decision in 2005 -http://stakeholders....es/post/163.pdf

 

There has only been one major change that could affect Royal Mail since then and support any reintroduction of all but identical proposals and that is the VCR Act of 2006. In a nutshell that act prohibits Registered firearms dealers from selling airguns and a few related parts through the post. It does not prohibit private individuals from doing so. The VCR Act 2006 does not support these proposals in any way shape or form.

 

b )It is not the Job of Royal Mail to enforce the VCR act. That is the job of the police and similar point was made by Postcomm. Registered firearms dealers are exceedingly well aware of the law and due to the licensing requirements of their trade are amongst the most law abiding members of the public to be found anywhere. There is no registered firearms dealers in the country who disregards the VCR act.

 

c) The proposals completely ignore the sale of airguns between private individuals. This is totally legal and it is totally legal to use the postal service to move them. I refer you to Postcomm’s decision of 2005 above. The Royal Mail state the proposals effect will be minimal yet obviously haven’t considered them in any detail due to the oversight of private sales. At the moment the Royal Mail is the ONLY service that can be used to move airguns between private individuals. How can removing that service be in any way a minimal disruption? It will cause drastic issues for second hand sales that are perfectly legal.

 

d) Royal Mail state that “Postcomm did not want to pre-empt the (VCR act)” yet that was not the main thrust of their response. That was a side issue, Postcomm clearly made the following points clear when quashing the Royal Mails request:-

 

1.Royal Mail has not provided sufficient evidence that carrying firearms in its letter network causes them undue and unavoidable disruption;

2.Royal Mail has not provided sufficient evidence that prohibiting the carriage of firearms in its letters network would contribute to a material reduction in the number of illegal weapons entering and circulating within the UK;

3.Prohibiting the carriage of (legal) firearms in the post would cause unnecessary hardship for many persons and businesses, especially those in rural areas and Northern Ireland.

 

Not one of these points is any less valid today and I urge to to bring this to the attention of the honourable members and quash this proposal. If it is allowed to go ahead then it will have a serious effect on my ability to go about my lawful sport and it will have a drastic effect on those companies that sell mostly mail order items and private individuals who buy second hand airguns, usually new shooters. People in areas where they have to get items by mail order will also be affected, people cannot afford to spend lots on petrol going to get parts that could be posted via a first class stamp.

 

This will be a great legacy to shooting following a gold medal at the Olympics, making it far harder for youngsters and new shooters to get into the sport. I also question the motives of Royal Mail introducing this proposal when the house is in recess, cutting off a line of protest. Their contact for registering your objection was also out of office and on holiday.

 

Yours Sincerely

Mr Livefast

Edited August 22, 2012 by Livefast123

[1in9]

As someone who runs a modest parts business this is a real worry.

 

In their poorly worded proposal in addition to prohibiting "firearms (including those listed in Section 1, Section 2 and Section 5 of the Firearms Act 1968 (as amended)), low-powered air rifles and pistols" they also ban postage of "all component parts such as triggers, actions, barrels and magazines;" not just licensed pressure bearing parts, everything: screws, stocks, magazines, springs, ejectors, the lot - even though they are not regulated and entirely legal to trade without restriction.

 

Specialist parts businesses and gunshops who trade online are mostly a good way below the delivery volume threshold to use alternative postal companies like TNT (min x250 a day). Also, most postal companies (rather than couriers) still use Royal Mail for the final delivery, so where would they stand using Royal Mail's network?

 

The alternative is everything by courier and no one wants to inflict hefty courier prices on shooters for inexpensive spares, it becomes uneconomical. Not to mention our numerous rural customers in remote areas which couriers struggle to find or value couriers simply won't ship to. Royal Mail reliably gets our rifle magazines to Shetland for the same price as Sheffield, a courier will easily charge £30. Ordered the wrong size? Courier pickup? From Orkney? We shouldn't have to put people through it when the national service on their doorstep which knows the area works just fine.

 

Time to get lobbying!

[Christopher Graffius]

BASC is writing to Norman Lamb and will be seeking a meeting with him. Our Firearms team also has a meeting scheduled with the Post Office.

 

Norman Lamb has been very supportive in the past. His North Norfolk constituency has one of the largest BASC memberships within the UK - 876. He's helped BASC's campaign against Reference areas on the North Norfolk coast that would ban wildfowling and recently handed out prizes at one of our Eastern region's Young Shot's days.

 

I met him earlier in the year and found him helpful, reasonable and practical.

 

Christopher

[1in9]

Worth speaking with Business Secretary Vince Cable as well I think, to draw his pragmatic business supporting attention.

 

http://www.bis.gov.uk/contact/ministers-business