Dekers Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 (edited) Sorry to say but as far as i am aware Not 22 rimfire is not recognised as a suitable caliber to dispatch a fox even though i disagree having been shot with a 22 pistol it would come under the cruelty to animals Act. thats in Leicester different constabularys look at calibers differently ...... there is a MASS of historical debate about this subject. There is NOTHING illegal or cruel about shooting a fox with a .22lr, in Leicester or anywhere else in England. The numerous cruelty acts cover cruelty, not calibre, you could be charged with causing cruelty using ANY calibre. Edited September 23, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 Durham must be different then.....they won't allow Fox on 22, or HMR 17. Clearly states on my Cert..... Deer, Fox, & Vermin for the CF,.... Vermin for the 22. If taken to court over shooting a Fox with the 22, with the conditions on the Cert above, I doubt you would win your case. So Durham clearly have Fox in a different category to Vermin.... As wymberley says, the sooner all the forces sing from the same hymn sheet the better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixhills 69 Posted September 22, 2012 Report Share Posted September 22, 2012 AS Above not just leicester then thansk BJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 (edited) Do not confuse the Law of the Land with a condition on your FAC, if a region wishes to impose a condition that is down to them, and for you to debate should you so wish, that condition is NOT Law, it is simply a condition of your specific FAC. There is Nothing illegal about the specific action of shooting a fox with a 12ft lb Air rifle, .22lr, cannon, etc etc. And the Vermin/Fox debate will not be solved here, it has been discussed in numerous previous threads on PW and the question still comes round, like here! My region used to like Fox as a separate listed quarry to vermin, and listed "Fox" on ALL my rimfires, but changed their wording several years ago now to the wonderful...... ALL LAWFUL QUARRY, problem solved! :D Edited September 23, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 23, 2012 Report Share Posted September 23, 2012 Breech of the conditions of your FAC is in itself a criminal offence. Do you want to go to court on the matter? of course foxes get shot with .22 rf in breech of issued conditions. Is a fox any different in one county than another? are GMP foxes easier to kill than lancashire or cheshire foxes? There are better tools But the .22 is capable of killing things far greater in size than a fox at far greater range. Just be glad they dont start stipulating .22 WMR and lower for foxes and vermin and stop issueing c/f for fox on the flip side. If you shoot foxes or a single fox in breech of your FAC conditions thats your buisness, unless something goes wrong and you do end up in the court. If you have fox on your .22rf then pick your shots well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOXHUNTER1 Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 You can only shoot FOX if your certificate is conditioned that way. Saying it is vermin will not wash if you were ever caught as is it breaching your FAC conditions and may end up in your certificate being revoked. If you are going to use a.22LR for shooting foxes then your FAC must state this. We all know people shoot foxes with the .22LR but its not ideal ,if you are going to shoot foxes then a centrefire should be used. I know opportunities arise when you have only your .22LR with you . i.e lamping rabbits , so keep shooting distances close and show the fox some respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drut Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 Funny old system:not a problem to me as Northumbria class fox as "Vermin" which I suppose could provide ammunition for someone's defence if push came to shove.Problem seems to be common sense:i.e. 22lr can be the right tool of opportunity or choice(e.g.garden fox) if used within it and the shooter's capability,we end up bogged down in a "no mans land" of individual force & FEO opinion.Home Office guidelines do not rule out its use within limited circumstances & BASC even did an article about it but we are still fed conflicting opinions according to a"postcode lottery". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gee. Posted September 24, 2012 Report Share Posted September 24, 2012 I have just received my cert from Gwent for a HMR, they refused me CF on lack of experience altho I had enough land and good reason to possess one. Advised the FEO at interview that the main reason for acquiring my cert was for fox control and he stated quite clearly at interview that the HMR is ok for fox at sensible ranges and that fox is classed as vermin as far as he and the force was concerned, After numerous emails asking them to put it on the cert so that it actually states 'fox' just to clarify, as the law is unclear and the inconsistencies from one force to another are shocking, it arrived saying just 'VERMIN and zeroing'. Dont trust the FEO one bit on this one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 If taken to court over shooting a Fox with the 22, with the conditions on the Cert above, I doubt you would win your case. as it has NEVER BEEN TESTED AND IS HIGHLY IMPROBABLE TO BE TESTED AS A SINGLE "OFFENCE" we will never know and people will continue to shoot foxes with whatever they have to hand. personally I think there is enough variance in the legal and inter force statement to provide anyone out of law school with enough ammunition (sic) to have it thrown out at the very least. a) no legally defined statement of what constitutes vermin. thats it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 a) no legally defined statement of what constitutes vermin. thats it. That's not it......not in Durham anyway. Clearly states Deer, Fox, Vermin for CF Vermin for 22. Breach the terms of your Cert in Durham, get caught, & you'll probably lose it....That's It... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 That's not it......not in Durham anyway. Clearly states Deer, Fox, Vermin for CF Vermin for 22. Breach the terms of your Cert in Durham, get caught, & you'll probably lose it....That's It... your FAC may state "vermin" but if ( and this is the bit most people assume is the simple step from field to court)..... you happen to get spotted shooting a fox with your .22lr and... someone for whatever reason knows enough about Firearms law to pursue you for breach of FAC conditions and.... can prove you took the shot,and .... gather enough evidence to convince a CPS barrister to take on the the case despite the best outcome IF they get a conviction only being a loss of FAC from an otherwise law abiding citizen,.... when you are standing in the court and the lawyer acting on your behalf questions the officer giving his statement and says: "Officer, what is the legal definition of "vermin" and can you show me where it specifically excludes FOX"....... it is then that the hush falls on the court as the wait for the judge to wake up and make possibly the boldest statement in his career that a "FOX is not vermin" and therefore you can not shoot it under the "FAC conditon 1A Vermin and Ground Game"........ lot of ifs and buts and expectations there. if you dont feel happy shooting a fox with a .22lr ....then dont. but the rest of the .22lr wielding community will be out happily racking up charlie head count. this is an age old argument to solve a problem that doesn't exist. No-one has ever been solely prosecuted for breach of quarry conditions when it comes to fox (and probably for that matter anything else! possibly with the exception of an additional charge lumped on a poacher who slotted a deer with a .22lr and got caught, the key being ADDITIONAL charge) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazooka Joe Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 "Officer, what is the legal definition of "vermin" and can you show me where it specifically excludes FOX"....... And the other side of the coin is,.... where does it specifically includes Fox.? Like it or lump it, you are governed by the conditions of your Cert, the Force, (Durham in this instance) won't condition 22RF for Fox, so be it, they make the rules. Until a test case comes to court, to decide either way, this debate will be ongoing. Interpreting the wording of your Cert in ways which go against the policy of the issuing authority, at the very least you could lose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 because its primarily a foxing rifle, could be not listed against the .22lr as that is not the main reason for acquisition. BASC cleared this up and said if you have vermin written then go ahead, its a very brave CPS employee who would go to court to argue foxes aren't vermin with no real chance of winning it. The onus is on you however to do it humanely as the laws are Vice versa my ticket just reads pest control and deer no mention of calibers for which, they may not want you to use them and if you ask the question then its a little naughty to do so but the fundamentals are that foxes are vermin and like it or not they should write vermin not including foxes if that is what they mean. It is not the holders job to know what the local dept think, obviously people have to do what they are happy with but BASC released the information no doubt do they don't keep being asked. In certain places and times of year a rimfire is my tool of choice but then there are cubs and there are large dog foxes, though in my experience they don't generally like it up them as the saying goes at close range Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan68 Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 My cert from Thames valley police reads"The.22 rifle,sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting vermin ground game and any other lawful quarry". "The.243 rifle,sound moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting foxes and any other lawful quarry" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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