using a section 1 without a ticket?

[Mr Majyk]

hello all, i recently completed my probationary period with my rifle club and ive applied for my licence (fingers crossed it'll go through fine.) one of the other members who does vermin control has invited me out with him to one of his permissions for a bit of rabbiting as i said id been doing it for years with an air rifle, anyway he's offered me the use of one of his .22lr's and im wondering if this is all legal and above board. he thinks its fine as i'll be shooting on private land with a written permission from the land owner and under supervision at all times (and im insured with BASC). has anyone else got any experience with this or does anyone know if i'll be ok to do this? all advice appreciated as always

[bicykillgaz]

hello all, i recently completed my probationary period with my rifle club and ive applied for my licence (fingers crossed it'll go through fine.) one of the other members who does vermin control has invited me out with him to one of his permissions for a bit of rabbiting as i said id been doing it for years with an air rifle, anyway he's offered me the use of one of his .22lr's and im wondering if this is all legal and above board. he thinks its fine as i'll be shooting on private land with a written permission from the land owner and under supervision at all times (and im insured with BASC). has anyone else got any experience with this or does anyone know if i'll be ok to do this? all advice appreciated as always

 

 

Best off ringing the local fire arms officer to clarify but that's how I learnt.

[aga man]

from memory i think it must be the landowner you are with and there firearm you are using in there presence. could be wrong though. as gary says give them a bell to be sure

[mossy835]

dont think you can, unless its the owner of the land.

[Haytime]

Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

 

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

 

of private premises and to use it on those

 

premises in the presence of either the

 

occupier or their servant ( This includes a person with permission from the landowner, it does not have to be an employee) without holding a

 

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly moreflexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle this is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier.

 

However, the occupier and/or their servantmust hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditionsof the certificate. These may include a

 

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow

 

a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

 

There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

 

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law

 

but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot.

[JonathanL]

hello all, i recently completed my probationary period with my rifle club and ive applied for my licence (fingers crossed it'll go through fine.) one of the other members who does vermin control has invited me out with him to one of his permissions for a bit of rabbiting as i said id been doing it for years with an air rifle, anyway he's offered me the use of one of his .22lr's and im wondering if this is all legal and above board. he thinks its fine as i'll be shooting on private land with a written permission from the land owner and under supervision at all times (and im insured with BASC). has anyone else got any experience with this or does anyone know if i'll be ok to do this? all advice appreciated as always

 

Firearms Act 1988 says,

 

'16 Borrowed rifles on private premises.

 

(1)A person of or over the age of seventeen may, without holding a firearm certificate, borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and use it on those premises in the presence either of the occupier or of a servant of the occupier if—

 

(a)the occupier or servant in whose presence it is used holds a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle; and

 

(b)the borrower’s possession and use of it complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.

 

(2)A person who by virtue of subsection (1) above is entitled without holding a firearm certificate to borrow and use a rifle in another person’s presence may also, without holding such a certificate, purchase or acquire ammunition for use in the rifle and have it in his possession during the period for which the rifle is borrowed if—

 

(a)the firearm certificate held by that other person authorises the holder to have in his possession at that time ammunition for the rifle of a quantity not less than that purchased or acquired by, and in the possession of, the borrower; and

 

(b)the borrower’s possession and use of the ammunition complies with any conditions as to those matters specified in the certificate.'

 

from memory i think it must be the landowner you are with and there firearm you are using in there presence. could be wrong though. as gary says give them a bell to be sure

 

Occupier or his servant.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a

 

person to borrow a rifle from the occupier

 

of private premises and to use it on those

 

premises in the presence of either the

 

occupier or their servant ( This includes a person with permission from the landowner, it does not have to be an employee) without holding a

 

firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly moreflexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle this is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier.

 

However, the occupier and/or their servantmust hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower who must be accompanied by the certificate

holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditionsof the certificate. These may include a

 

safekeeping requirement and, in some cases,territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow

 

a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm.

 

There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances.

 

A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or“landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law

 

but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot.

 

As mentioned on another thread. It is not a given that someone who merely has permission is an occupier - how you can extend the meaning of 'servant' to a mere permission holder is utterly beyond me.

 

J.

[Haytime]

'Servant' is not defined in law, that's how.

 

The rifle must be owned by the occupier, but can be used in the presence of a 'servant'

 

And that's the law, please speak to your enquiry office who will confirm this to you.

 

Kind Regards

 

Haytime.

[JonathanL]

Just because a word isn't defined by the act doesn't mean you can apply any old definition you please so that it suits your purpose.

 

If a word is not specifically defined then you apply the ordinary English definition. A 'servant' is one who serves another and who is under the control and direction of the other. An employee is a servant. I don't see how you can stretch that to include someone who is merely a recreational shooter. Even though he may be providing the landowner a benefit he is not his servant.

 

The rifle need not be owned by the occupier. He or his servant must have an FAC in respect of it which is not the same thing.

 

J.

Edited September 9, 2012 by JonathanL

[al4x]

Ok a slight variation on this query but the act mentions without a certificate. If two of you have Certs how do you stand using each others guns?

[kyska]

I would imagine the occupier can let the other person use their rifles but not the other way round, that's how it would read to me

[vampire]

hello all, i recently completed my probationary period with my rifle club and ive applied for my licence (fingers crossed it'll go through fine.) one of the other members who does vermin control has invited me out with him to one of his permissions for a bit of rabbiting as i said id been doing it for years with an air rifle, anyway he's offered me the use of one of his .22lr's and im wondering if this is all legal and above board. he thinks its fine as i'll be shooting on private land with a written permission from the land owner and under supervision at all times (and im insured with BASC). has anyone else got any experience with this or does anyone know if i'll be ok to do this? all advice appreciated as always

 

Your friend from the club is the land owners 'servant' ie,carrying out a service and you may use his rifle as long as he accompanies you and that all restrictions on the fac are adhered to,this is how i learnt.

As with all 3rd party advice,i would check it out with your feo BEFORE you use the rifle as its you that will be eating off tin plates.

[JonathanL]

Ok a slight variation on this query but the act mentions without a certificate. If two of you have Certs how do you stand using each others guns?

 

Then you would be fine if you were both either an occupier or a servant.

 

J.

 

Ok a slight variation on this query but the act mentions without a certificate. If two of you have Certs how do you stand using each others guns?

 

Then you would be fine if you were both either an occupier or a servant.

 

J.

[JonathanL]

 

 

Your friend from the club is the land owners 'servant' ie,carrying out a service and you may use his rifle as long as he accompanies you and that all restrictions on the fac are adhered to,this is how i learnt.

As with all 3rd party advice,i would check it out with your feo BEFORE you use the rifle as its you that will be eating off tin plates.

 

You aren't a servant as you aren't under an obligation to do it. If you were employed to do it (like a game keeper) then you would be.

 

J.

[wymberley]

Your friend from the club is the land owners 'servant' ie,carrying out a service and you may use his rifle as long as he accompanies you and that all restrictions on the fac are adhered to,this is how i learnt.

As with all 3rd party advice,i would check it out with your feo BEFORE you use the rifle as its you that will be eating off tin plates.

 

As is well known from a multitude of previous similar (if not actually identical) threads, this is indeed how many of us learnt although if you go back far enough aquiring a licence was then, unlike now, comparatively simple and painless.

 

The idea though was not to rock the boat.

 

You knew what you were doing was not strictly legit. but common sense prevailed. Checking with the FEO (whatever they were then - I don't think there was suh a thing) would have let the cat out of the bag and you'd have been given the only possible answer. You also knew very well that your mate from the club with whom you were going to shoot with because he had permission (and the landowner had also given you the nod) was not his (the landowner/occupant) servant as he was, in fact, the local postman who just happened to have been given permission to shoot on the land. Nothing more.