Very sad news about the two police officers shot

[Robl]

Imagine if PC Simon Harwood had been armed.

 

OK.

I imagine he would have left the gun in the holster and done exactly the same as he did.

Or perhaps he would have just put his hand on the gun and Tomlinson would have legged it.

Perhaps on a public order situation they would have all/mostly left their guns in the armoury.

Perhaps he would have had a tazer, and just used that to threaten Tomlinson to ****** off.

I can’t imagine any rational person thinking that Harwood would have shot Tomlinson.

 

 

But, as we’re playing the imagination game;

Lets imagine if the first cops to arrive on scene with Derek Bird were armed.

Or the cops in Dunblane.

Or Hungerford.

Maybe if Sharon Beshenivsky was armed she’s still be with us.

Or the cops that Rual Moat shot.

Perhaps those cops who were recently mauled by a dog might not be in hospital still if they had a handgun between them.

[al4x]

The incidents of police deaths where firearms would have helped is minute and in this case I can't see it having helped. They wouldn't have had guns ready and no gun helps against a hand grenade. This bloke was pure scum he knew he was going down and obviously wanted notoriety as well you won't stop those randoms. Wherever guns are carried routinely accidents do follow and most beat officers are happy not being armed, its just another thing to worry about when you are having a ruck with a suspect, and in these days the more worrying thing is use it and you stand a good chance of being sent down if you make the wrong call. The instances are well published and the media will try you the keyboard warriors will wade in and any view of the split second decision goes out of the window.

 

Not so long ago this happened with GMP just to show even in training it can happen.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/mar/07/police-charges-death-gun-training

[beeredup]

Coward. He shoots unarmed cops then hands himself in before armed ones turn up and he might get a taste of his own medicine.

 

Well said!! i really can't see why he has done this? why shoot them an then hand him self in its totally pointless!! this scum bag has to be one of the biggest arguements towards bringing back hanging to the country!! hell i'd pay for the rope out of my own pocket and tie the knot myself!!!

[storme37]

everyone calls for the death penalty when news likes this breaks but the reality is britain would have executed loads of innocent people if it hadnt been abolished, it could have happened to anyone all to often the wrong person has been convicted. maybe a vote amongst serving police officers would be the way to go regarding arming them.

[AVB]

I haven’t seen that statistic myself.

But, I’d suggest that perhaps 100% of police don’t want to be in a situation where they wish they were armed.

Or perhaps 75% of police who bother to answer questionnaires don’t want to be armed.

 

I found this - A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty.

 

6 years old though.

[beeredup]

get them armed id back it 100%. the criminals in this day and age are prepared to kill and its happening all the time. somthing needs to be done for police officers to protect themselves and the public. tazers and pepper spray work on night club brawls but not when faced with armed criminals. play them at there own gam!

 

Well said sir!

[al4x]

I found this - A 2006 survey of 47,328 Police Federation members found 82% did not want officers to be routinely armed on duty.

 

6 years old though.

 

I'd bet its not changed, the public sees the headline cases the police know what they see day to day and how appropriate arming would be. With the laws in this country not being on their side if they make the wrong call I can't see how any would want to be in that situation.

[Sprackles]

 

 

OK.

I imagine he would have left the gun in the holster and done exactly the same as he did.

Or perhaps he would have just put his hand on the gun and Tomlinson would have legged it.

Perhaps on a public order situation they would have all/mostly left their guns in the armoury.

Perhaps he would have had a tazer, and just used that to threaten Tomlinson to ****** off.

I can’t imagine any rational person thinking that Harwood would have shot Tomlinson.

 

 

But, as we’re playing the imagination game;

Lets imagine if the first cops to arrive on scene with Derek Bird were armed.

Or the cops in Dunblane.

Or Hungerford.

Maybe if Sharon Beshenivsky was armed she’s still be with us.

Or the cops that Rual Moat shot.

Perhaps those cops who were recently mauled by a dog might not be in hospital still if they had a handgun between them.

 

The reference was not to the Tomlinson incident but to his general demeanour and history.

A man who seemingly revelled in his position of power and the excesses he appeared to get away with, would you want a man like that armed as routine. That was the whole point if my comment.

[Catweazle]

It's a tragic case, but I doubt it would have been much different if the two policewomen had been armed, except the scumbag who killed them would have had two pistols afterwards.

 

In the USA many policemen are killed with their own guns, and that is in a country where guns are much more easily available.

[four-wheel-drive]

OK.

I imagine he would have left the gun in the holster and done exactly the same as he did.

Or perhaps he would have just put his hand on the gun and Tomlinson would have legged it.

Perhaps on a public order situation they would have all/mostly left their guns in the armoury.

Perhaps he would have had a tazer, and just used that to threaten Tomlinson to ****** off.

I can’t imagine any rational person thinking that Harwood would have shot Tomlinson.

 

 

But, as we’re playing the imagination game;

Lets imagine if the first cops to arrive on scene with Derek Bird were armed.

Or the cops in Dunblane.

Or Hungerford.

Maybe if Sharon Beshenivsky was armed she’s still be with us.

Or the cops that Rual Moat shot.

Perhaps those cops who were recently mauled by a dog might not be in hospital still if they had a handgun between them.

 

I think you have got it spot on just to say how many police men have been killed is only part of it my thoughts are like yours if the police had guns they would have at least been able to do something to stop even more harm coming to innocent people.

[Robl]

The reference was not to the Tomlinson incident but to his general demeanour and history.

A man who seemingly revelled in his position of power and the excesses he appeared to get away with, would you want a man like that armed as routine. That was the whole point if my comment.

 

 

That’s a bit of a loaded question.

No, I would not want him armed.

But nor would I want him in the police.

 

However, in general, I would like to see the police armed.

 

I think it’s absurd to have a situation like Derek Bird, where the police know there is a gunman on the loose, but the nearest armed police are several hours away.

[39TDS]

Do all you people that are now clamouring for the police to be routinely armed (against their will by all accounts), really want to be in a situation where every routine burglary report is approached with guns drawn?

I suspect a lot of folk will get hurt if that were the case.

 

These two poor women weren't expecting what they were met with. Armed or not their fate would unlikely to be changed.

May they both rest in peace and my deepest condolences to all that knew them. A very sad day.

[storme37]

would have been 2 guns to 1 an officer may have made it who can tell. police should have a vote then their feelings would be clear.

[Robl]

Do all you people that are now clamouring for the police to be routinely armed (against their will by all accounts), really want to be in a situation where every routine burglary report is approached with guns drawn?

I suspect a lot of folk will get hurt if that were the case.

 

 

Just for the purpose of the discussion this isn’t “now clamouring for. . .”

I’ve been an advocate of arming the police for many years.

 

Do I think the police should approach every burglary with guns drawn?

Not every burglary perhaps. But they should have the option if they want to.

Drawn, safety on, gun down.

That would be quite sensible when you have no idea if you’re going to encounter an empty house, a crack head with a kitchen knife or a nutjob with a shotgun.

 

It would depend very much on the area and circumstance.

But I’m tired of watching our police get shot and injured by criminals, and having no means to defend themselves.

 

When it comes to criminals who don’t recognise the police authority and ignore all laws, then the average policeman is slightly less effective that a homeowner with a cricket bat – and that’s not right.

[flynny]

Just for the purpose of the discussion this isn’t “now clamouring for. . .”

I’ve been an advocate of arming the police for many years.

 

Do I think the police should approach every burglary with guns drawn?

Not every burglary perhaps. But they should have the option if they want to.

Drawn, safety on, gun down.

That would be quite sensible when you have no idea if you’re going to encounter an empty house, a crack head with a kitchen knife or a nutjob with a shotgun.

 

It would depend very much on the area and circumstance.

But I’m tired of watching our police get shot and injured by criminals, and having no means to defend themselves.

 

When it comes to criminals who don’t recognise the police authority and ignore all laws, then the average policeman is slightly less effective that a homeowner with a cricket bat – and that’s not right.

 

HERE, HERE ,Well said that man, better to have and not use it, than have not and suffer the possible out come. A bit of a black and white quote off myself but " do i take all my decoys or should I just take the flapper" "take em all mate you never know what you will need " cover all angles especially for the cops in this day and age.

 

RIP to the fine GMP officers, ,

 

ATB Flynny

[al4x]

then prosecute them when the object the crim was carrying that looked like a gun wasn't .....................

[dougall]

awful news.Just cannot understand how someone on police bail,or indeed anyone can get hold of grenades from.......frightening.

[Robl]

then prosecute them when the object the crim was carrying that looked like a gun wasn't .....................

 

I’m fairly certain that in every case where a suspect has been thought to be carrying a gun and has been shot the police have been found to have acted correctly.

There have of course been investigations by the IPCC, and the usual trial by tabloid – but I can’t recall a case where the police were found to be in the wrong.

 

If a criminal pretends to be armed then they are treated as armed.

 

IIRC there’s even a case when someone with a pen in their pocket pretended it was a gun barrel and tried to rob a post office.

The post office clerk had a heart attack and died.

The criminal went down for armed robbery and murder.

 

(As a sidenote, I think the main problem with the IPCC is that it has the word ‘complaints’ in its name.

When we hear of a police shooting being investigated by the ‘complaints commission’ we assume that someone has complained.

I think it would be better to be investigated by the ‘Independent Police Investigation Commission’

Exactly the same job, but they investigate a situation, they don’t just deal with complaints.

Complaint is a very negative word, where Investigation is more neutral.)

[al4x]

How long did it take for the two to get cleared over the table leg incident in London?

 

In the meantime they were off armed duties and with no protection didn't most of Londons armed police threaten to down tools?

 

Its the big issue and why police don't want to be routinely armed, make one mistake and you are on trial for at best manslaughter. Every time a gun is fired there is an investigation and everything is checked from every possible angle, you would have to change that if every police officer was to be armed and change the system so they had some element of legal protection, as mistakes do happen and the trial by media that goes on at the moment is ridiculous. I don't really know any other job where they give you something and say if you use it believing you are right that you then need to convince a Judge and Jury and fail and you could well go to prison. Sobering really and I seriously wonder why anyone wants to be armed response.

[Livefast123]

47,000 is an extremely small percentage considering there are around 134,000 police officers in the UK. It would be interesting to see where those asked were placed in the ranking system or which department they were in. I would say that if the survey was conducted amonst front line officers, the ones that actually have to deal with violent incidents, violent criminals and situations that merit using force that the answers would be completly different.

 

Sadly I think that the day of the 'bobby' is numbered in this country due to the change in social attitudes and I feel that the police force....sorry service has lost control of towns and cities across the country. I am very much of the attitude that your mouth is your primary weapon for resolving incidents but I took on carrying a Taser when I joined the RPU. I have used this 3 times in 4 years to protect colleagues from a knife wielding maniac, stopped a guy cutting his throat and stopped a guy from swallowing a large bag of drugs that would have killed him when all other attempts had failed but more importently I have lost count of the amount of times that just getting the Taser out has done the job and sorted out what could have been very violent situations. Juse because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it.

 

I guess my point is that I would much rather be armed and have the tools to deal with any incident then have to stand there and be shot like a pig in the slaughterhouse.

 

I agree with al4x that something would have to be done about the British media and the investigations of shootings. It's something you just hope you would never be in the situation to do.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Livefast123

[Salop Matt]

Personally I would like to see far more traing and range time for firearms officers and would also like to see larger numbers of these officers (double what we currently have) But all officers to have Tazars !

I wouldnt want to see every police officer armed though !

 

ATB

 

Matt

[Livefast123]

If firearms officer had more range time and training then they would never be on the streets!. Just like the shooting community there are those that let the side down and they should be dealt with but the majority are responsible and good police officers. Forces have no money for extra firearms officers, our force is considering reducing their numbers after the boom for the Olympics because they are so expensive.

 

Taser for all officers is a really good idea and should be made countrywide, unfortunatly due to money and training time (3 days) forces and the HO are shying away from the idea

Edited September 19, 2012 by Livefast123

[Robl]

Sobering really and I seriously wonder why anyone wants to be armed response.

 

 

I guess it’s just an extension of why they want to be police.

There are better paying less dangerous jobs than the police, so people need to have a damn good reason to join.

 

I’d suggest that most people who join do so because they want to protect the innocent.

They look at the world and decide they want to do their bit to make it better.

 

If there are criminals with guns then someone needs to stand up against them.

If we look at all the people who choose to become police officers, then some of that number will choose to be armed police because it just needs to be done, and they are the sort of person that steps up to the plate and does what needs to be done.

[al4x]

oh I can see the reason they would become armed response but these days they are putting their liberty, livelihood and if PW has their way pension on the line if they make a single mistake, that is the bit that I would find more worrying than the "danger"

[poontang]

 

 

 

 

I guess my point is that I would much rather be armed and have the tools to deal with any incident then have to stand there and be shot like a pig in the slaughterhouse.

 

 

 

So would I.