Kes Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 A hypothetical question to the wise shooters on PW. If you have tenants rights to control pests, are you able to control crop damaging (large) deer with a shotgun or must it be a rifle? Naturally a shotgun might be held but a rifle might not. Thanks for any light on the question. P.S. not proposing to do this - just uncertain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 tenant rights would need to include the Deer rights AFAIK they wouldn't be included with rabbits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 A hypothetical question to the wise shooters on PW. If you have tenants rights to control pests, are you able to control crop damaging (large) deer with a shotgun or must it be a rifle? Naturally a shotgun might be held but a rifle might not. Thanks for any light on the question. P.S. not proposing to do this - just uncertain. Pretty sure it has to be the 'land owner' Kes but I'm no expert on that side of the deer act! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 As Alex says to take deer a tenant would need to have the right to do so from the owner of those rights. Rabbits fall under entirely different legislation, specific to them. However to answer your question regarding using a shotgun, this is covered by sections 6 & 7 of the Deer Act. A shotgun may be used with AAA shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Kes thinking back and your authority not granting you a deer rifle this really isn't the way to go forward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Straight off, I'm not aware of any legislation since 1987 which may affect the following. In short, the legislation here is a nightmare and an internet forum is not an ideal platform for discussion as the 'ifs and buts' are legion. As ever, a comprehensive summary of the law is found in 'Fair Game' (published in 1987) by Parkes and Thornley. As you'd expect, 'occupier' and 'authorised person' come into play. Here we go again! Yes, it is legal, 12 bore, SSG or AAA dependent upon species. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 It's AAA only (and not species dependent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vipa Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Yes, it is legal, 12 bore, SSG or AAA dependent upon species. But isn't it also dependent upon your status regarding the land and can only be done under specific conditions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 It's AAA only (and not species dependent). Charlie, My point exactly! Dependent where you are in the UK alters the situation and I concede that I should have added that to my original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wymberley Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 But isn't it also dependent upon your status regarding the land and can only be done under specific conditions? Yep and yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scolopax Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 To be safe, get someone in with an appropriate centrefire rifle, it will do the job far more efficiently and no doubt more humanely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Just to add a hypothetical question if the landowner had the rights (i.e deer rights not held by a separate party) and deer were damaging crops. As an SGC holder would this warrant an FAC for Slugs? And then would this be considered a centre fire or still a shotgun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 (edited) As stated, you have to have the rights and you have to use the right gauge and size of cart for where you happen to be standing and in the right circumstances (unless we are talking Humane dispatch, another possible minefield) . Regardless of the legal situation, and as someone else mentioned, a shotgun is seldom the best tool for use on deer, although it can be. Enjoy the debate. Edited September 19, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 the one thing you need to remember especially with the larger species is you open yourself right up to a charge of causing unnecessary suffering if you fluff it up. Obviously you have to be caught first but I wouldn't want to use a shotgun routinely as its not the tool in most circumstances. I have however shot munties driven in the right circumstances and yes a shotgun does the job fine, its even quite good sport but its far from easy. Yes slugs can be added but i'd suggest if they have turned you down for a FAC rifle for the job you will send the alarm bells ringing good and proper if you apply for slugs in the same circumstances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 (edited) Yes slugs can be added but i'd suggest if they have turned you down for a FAC rifle for the job you will send the alarm bells ringing good and proper if you apply for slugs in the same circumstances. The way i see it is there is a big difference between sport stalking and damage control and while Forces insist on DSC1 mentoring etc (what are the chances your mentor is there when spot one munching on your crop) for control this isnt practical as it is a long process but if you already held SGC and wanted to be more confident of a clean kill would applying for slug on FAC be a compromise? Afterall Shotguns and slugs are the automatic choice in many parts of the world for deer and boar. KAnsas you can use a 20 or 12 gauge but only with slug (12 gauge only for ELK!) http://www.kdwpt.sta...Legal-Equipment Similar in Ohio 10 Bore or smaller using slug. And actually illegal to carry shot shell on you while hunting deer! Just interested as to why the favoured methods elsewhere are less favoured (legislated against) here? IS it due to the legislation SLUG as difficult to get as .243? SO might as well get .243? Would mentoring etc be applied to Slug? Edited September 19, 2012 by HDAV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Just to add a hypothetical question if the landowner had the rights (i.e deer rights not held by a separate party) and deer were damaging crops. As an SGC holder would this warrant an FAC for Slugs? And then would this be considered a centre fire or still a shotgun? As you say, slugs can be used and are authorised on a FAC. It's only the slugs that are subject to FAC and any conditions imposed as to their use, your shotgun remains a shotgun on a SGC. However, slugs are not that easy to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 the other thing with slugs is you'd want to be very careful where you use them this country is a little congested with walkers etc for their use, energy levels are very high but they are travelling relatively slowly. I'd suggest it would be irrelevant to licensing the pest issue and they would put conditions on their use and need a serious argument before granting in this situation. A farmer in desperate need with damage easily demonstrable is one thing but while you are arguing whether there are any deer on the ground with the same dept that is quite another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieT Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 HDVA You posted whilst I was typing, rather slowly. I would suggest that it's easier to get a deer rifle than slugs. Remember that we are talking about "crop protection" so those who actually qualify to shoot deer in these circumstances would be farmers or deer managers and would therefore presumably already have a deer rifle and not be subject to mentoring or other such conditions. Whilst slugs are useful they are no substitute for a rifle and kill no better. I have never seen a mentoring condition applied to slugs but then they tend to issue them to people who would not be subject to a mentoring condition on a rifle anyway. Stalkers generally and the BDS in particular are opposed to the use of shotguns for deer. This is a bit historic in that the Deer Act was primarialy enacted to put an end to practices that caused suffering of deer and to improve their lot. It (the Deer Act) put a stop to deer drives with shotguns and the use of small caliber rifles. There is no doubt that the act improved the lot of all species of deer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Thanks Charlie, Just wondered how many farmers would hold a deer cal rifle as a matter of course particularly if deer were not previously a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 thats fairly irrelevant where deer welfare is considered, deer rarely become a problem just like that. Its usually excuses to try and gain more toys used by shooters Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 To be safe, get someone in with an appropriate centrefire rifle, it will do the job far more efficiently and no doubt more humanely. This argument renders the rest of this tosh in the bin. I for one 100% agree having dealt with deer dieing of blood poisoning after being blasted with heavy shot. Mostly they fail to enter the ribcage and its aaa only in England, the BDS tested the terminals quite recently and they were not good to say the least (tested on Roe carcasses) i think the recomendation was about 15yds with the deer at full stretch if i remember correctly. If you had a specific problem with deer and put a post on here there are a number of suitable persons who can and will lend a hand. I would certainly travel a reasonable distance at my own expense for a genuinely required and planned cull, though if there was some moron having a go with a shotgun- well lets just say it dont meet this criteria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
al4x Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 were the carcasses frozen at the time? AAA's are something I'd not want to be near at 15 yards or even 30, and SSG's well they dropped muntjac on the spot. Obviously a lot smaller but still Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harnser Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 I must admit to not keeping myself up to date with all the legislation reff shooting matters . If I need to gain some info on shooting matters then I will contact my local FEO . Not to many years ago I was asked by a neighbour of my farmer friend to control some deer that had been raiding his apple orchard . The deer had really done a lot of damage to the fruit and the young trees . When I went and had a look at the orchard I decided that it was not safe to use a centre fire rifle on the land .The orchard was about 10 acres and in the centre of the village with houses bordering two sides . I contacted my FEO and explained the situation and asked him if I could use a shot gun on the deer . The bucks were in season but the does were not . He came back to me with a letter giving me permission to shoot the deer in the orchard only if they were feeding on the fruit or damaging the trees .I was allowed to use SG and SSG shotgun cartridges on the deer and no others . To cut a long storey short I shot 5 bucks and 2 does in the orchard and there was never any more problem with the deer . If in doubt contact your local FEO ,thats what he gets paid for . Harnser . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HDAV Posted September 19, 2012 Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 I must admit to not keeping myself up to date with all the legislation reff shooting matters . If I need to gain some info on shooting matters then I will contact my local FEO . Not to many years ago I was asked by a neighbour of my farmer friend to control some deer that had been raiding his apple orchard . The deer had really done a lot of damage to the fruit and the young trees . When I went and had a look at the orchard I decided that it was not safe to use a centre fire rifle on the land .The orchard was about 10 acres and in the centre of the village with houses bordering two sides . I contacted my FEO and explained the situation and asked him if I could use a shot gun on the deer . The bucks were in season but the does were not . He came back to me with a letter giving me permission to shoot the deer in the orchard only if they were feeding on the fruit or damaging the trees .I was allowed to use SG and SSG shotgun cartridges on the deer and no others . To cut a long storey short I shot 5 bucks and 2 does in the orchard and there was never any more problem with the deer . If in doubt contact your local FEO ,thats what he gets paid for . Harnser . That's the sort of situation i was thinking could occur with new planting of fruit trees etc if it is ever an issue for me I'll contact FEO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kes Posted September 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 Kes thinking back and your authority not granting you a deer rifle this really isn't the way to go forward Al4x -I am not the tenant in question and would NEVER shoot deer with a shotgun - even if the law permitted it - to me its cruel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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