Mikaveli Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Just because its a four stroke doesn't necessarily make it better. That's all I'm saying. Which is very true, design and build quality is more important than whether the engine is two or four stroke. But, all things being equal, a four-stroke engine should be more reliable. I've owned two-strokes and I'm a big fan of them, but liking something doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Four stroke engines are more expensive to build but in general are more reliable and economical. There is no argument there. Yes. there are two stroke engines that can run for a long time, if they're not highly tuned, but let's not pretend that's normal. When was the last time you saw a two stroke car ? I can only think of one, the notoriously poor Trabant, built down to a cost not up to a job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfireboy Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Four stroke engines are more expensive to build but in general are more reliable and economical. There is no argument there. Yes. there are two stroke engines that can run for a long time, if they're not highly tuned, but let's not pretend that's normal. When was the last time you saw a two stroke car ? I can only think of one, the notoriously poor Trabant, built down to a cost not up to a job. three cylinder wartberg. Old chap round the corner had an estate version. Lovely, it was, I mean wasn't. Seemed to keep going though, for years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Apparently Lotus are (or at least were in 2010) developing a new 2 stroke engine: http://www.autoblog.com/2010/01/22/lotus-gets-animated-with-its-omnivore-engine-technology/ Looks interesting - could change the game if it works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rimfireboy Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Which is very true, design and build quality is more important than whether the engine is two or four stroke. But, all things being equal, a four-stroke engine should be more reliable. I've owned two-strokes and I'm a big fan of them, but liking something doesn't mean it doesn't have its flaws. totally agree, it's just that when the question is asked, most people say that two stokes are nothing but trouble and don't last very long and that's just a sweeping statement often as not based on something they've read or heard about. I've nothing against four strokes,don't get me wrong. I love em, had some great ones. It's just that, especially with smaller capacity engines, two strokes are just so much more entertaining to ride, and if you look after them, can and will last as long as the equivalent four stroke in many cases. a bit more maintenance maybe, but rewarded with loads more grin factor. Just depends what you want from your biking really. Everybody's different, and I'm in no way biased either way. They're both good if you get a good un, if you know what I mean? Both certainly have their pitfalls also. I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hmmm, I wonder why they've got that reputation? Any two-stroke wears piston rings at a much higher rate than a four-stroke bike. The more highly tuned it is (wider ports etc.) the faster they'll wear. The oil delivery of a two stoke differs to that of a four-stroke too, where key areas of the crank aren't delivered oil in the quantity a modern four stroke engine would do. Spark plugs get fouled up by the oil / air mixture. At best, you have to change them more frequently, at worst it causes reliability and performance issues. The inlet systems often make use of flexible 'reed' valves to improve the control of the air flow mixture. These often fatigue or perish prematurely. Exhaust ports can eventually be restricted by the build up of oily carbon deposits. Couple all that with the fact that the Aprilia RS 125 is a cheaply made, Italian learner bike and you have the most reliable vehicle in the world... apparently. You are talking shiitaki mushrooms - the crank lubrication is as good as any other IC engine - infact you missed the one main failing of a two stroke that is commonly known - the fact that at high revs when you close the throttle on a two stroke you cut off the fuel - by doing this you also cut the cyclinder lubrication supply! the piston ring wear is more attruibuted to the fact a two stroke usually rev's to nearly double what a 4 stroke does! Most of the other "points" you mention are maintenance issues - Plug fouling, reed issues, de-coke. To say the aprilia RS series was cheaply made is just plain stupid - they had oil injection technology that was a new design, nylon balancer gears (first time on a performance production bike to improve pick up) and the frame geometry and design were straight out of the 500gp bike design book - are you crazy?? the fact they had thier own race series that a lot of the current crop of GP stars were in speaks volumes! and also the amount of GP championship wins they had - 124 125 and 250 gp wins, 15 road racing championship titles and 16 european speed championship titles... Oh yeah, i can see thats a bad bike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Four stroke engines are more expensive to build but in general are more reliable and economical. There is no argument there. Yes. there are two stroke engines that can run for a long time, if they're not highly tuned, but let's not pretend that's normal. When was the last time you saw a two stroke car ? I can only think of one, the notoriously poor Trabant, built down to a cost not up to a job. Cack - the two stroke design was based on low load with high speed - nothing to do with cars - the late great Joey dunlop explained to get the most out of a 2stroke you open the throttle at the start line and close it on the finish, anyone who watched him race will notice he used to keep the throttle pinned even when coming down gears sometimes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 totally agree, it's just that when the question is asked, most people say that two stokes are nothing but trouble and don't last very long and that's just a sweeping statement often as not based on something they've read or heard about. I've nothing against four strokes,don't get me wrong. I love em, had some great ones. It's just that, especially with smaller capacity engines, two strokes are just so much more entertaining to ride, and if you look after them, can and will last as long as the equivalent four stroke in many cases. a bit more maintenance maybe, but rewarded with loads more grin factor. Just depends what you want from your biking really. Everybody's different, and I'm in no way biased either way. They're both good if you get a good un, if you know what I mean? Both certainly have their pitfalls also. I digress. Spot on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 You are talking shiitaki mushrooms - the crank lubrication is as good as any other IC engine - infact you missed the one main failing of a two stroke that is commonly known - the fact that at high revs when you close the throttle on a two stroke you cut off the fuel - by doing this you also cut the cyclinder lubrication supply! the piston ring wear is more attruibuted to the fact a two stroke usually rev's to nearly double what a 4 stroke does! Most of the other "points" you mention are maintenance issues - Plug fouling, reed issues, de-coke. To say the aprilia RS series was cheaply made is just plain stupid - they had oil injection technology that was a new design, nylon balancer gears (first time on a performance production bike to improve pick up) and the frame geometry and design were straight out of the 500gp bike design book - are you crazy?? the fact they had thier own race series that a lot of the current crop of GP stars were in speaks volumes! and also the amount of GP championship wins they had - 124 125 and 250 gp wins, 15 road racing championship titles and 16 european speed championship titles... Oh yeah, i can see thats a bad bike! They are good bikes and I'm certainly not knocking their race success. ...you'll just own a few more spanners than your mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Don't get a two-stroke if you want economy or reliability... and remember these are machines owned by 17 year olds who don't bother with maintenance. A CBR 125 is reliable and economical - you'll see 90 mpg or better. There's the CG 125 if you're not too fashion conscious - that'll do 120 mpg! Don't get a scooter - they're for birds and 16 year olds! I'm with him on this, both of these will hold their value as well. Personally I'd go for the CG, but thats just cos of known reliability, mileage and ease of working on and sourcing parts for. Remember that you are only likely to have this until you pass your test so don't blow your whole budget. If you have £1500 available spend £500 on 125 and insurance and spend the rest on your DAS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
955i Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Recent 600 sports are tiny, I would avoid them. To get something roomier look at an older sports bike or a "naked sports" type, like a Tuono or Speed Triple. In the real world a naked sports bike is easily quick enough and they are loads of fun. Great in traffic too. I have owned both of these and the Tuono is a beast of a bike and great fun, but the Speed Triple was the best all-rounder (and also my favourite bike I have ever owned ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have owned both of these and the Tuono is a beast of a bike and great fun, but the Speed Triple was the best all-rounder (and also my favourite bike I have ever owned ) The Tuono has a great engine - especially mid-range, but the Speed Triple looks fantastic and has a great engine. The Tuono was more of a style afterthought (reusing most of the RSV), whereas you can tell the speed triple is meant to look like that - look at the frame. Awesome: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 As the OP is looking for a first bike to learn and commute on, a ploddy 125 single or twin four-stroke are very forgiving and unlikely to drop him in the claggy. (albeit that they may not be as much fun at the top end as a two-stroke). Later on, once you've passed your test, a second-hand Kawasaki GT550 would give solid commuting, and are surprisingly nippy. ps. I've got one for sale Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) Cack - the two stroke design was based on low load with high speed - nothing to do with cars - the late great Joey dunlop explained to get the most out of a 2stroke you open the throttle at the start line and close it on the finish, anyone who watched him race will notice he used to keep the throttle pinned even when coming down gears sometimes! I know you're just on a windup mission. Now that 4strokes have got light enough they're taking over everywhere, even my new strimmer has a 4stroke Honda engine. 2stroke race engines made a lot of power for the capacity and were very light, but compared to 4stroke racers they were thirsty, difficult to ride and unreliable. Perhaps Joey had discovered the secret to reliable two-strokes, but I can't see that keeping the throttle pinned will earn you too many friends at the traffic lights or on your test course. Face facts, we all love 2stroke bikes ( I still have 4 of them) but they are not as practical for everyday use as a 4stroke. PS. I have watched Joey race several times, and I'd love to know how he did a clutchless upshift without closing the throttle. Perhaps you could explain it. Edited October 17, 2012 by Catweazle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin lad Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) HI Mate As said above, for a first big bike the 600 or 650 bandit will serve you well. Also look at the Suzuki SV650 and SV650S. My first big bike was the SV650S and I loved it. The engine was brilliant, the bike was light, for a middle weight, and very responsive also the insurance was very low for a new rider on 650. Jamie i have a sv650s and my insurance was £87 fully comp this year with 3 years ncb its a group 9 insurance great fun bike colin my youngest just got a bandit but as he not taking test for 2 weeks i had to ride it home for him and that was a nice ride to, also its restricted to 33hp but still seemed plenty for a newbei Edited October 17, 2012 by colin lad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 I have owned both of these and the Tuono is a beast of a bike and great fun, but the Speed Triple was the best all-rounder (and also my favourite bike I have ever owned ) I had a Tuono as a loaner whilst my Mille was in for a service, it was a lot of fun in the tight bends but harder work in the fast bits. My friend took one to the IOM and it was blown out of the water by my Mille, as you'd expect, but as a naked bike it takes some beating. I like the Speed Triple a lot, the noise it makes is addictive and it really looks the part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 (edited) I know you're just on a windup mission. Now that 4strokes have got light enough they're taking over everywhere, even my new strimmer has a 4stroke Honda engine. 2stroke race engines made a lot of power for the capacity and were very light, but compared to 4stroke racers they were thirsty, difficult to ride and unreliable. Perhaps Joey had discovered the secret to reliable two-strokes, but I can't see that keeping the throttle pinned will earn you too many friends at the traffic lights or on your test course. Face facts, we all love 2stroke bikes ( I still have 4 of them) but they are not as practical for everyday use as a 4stroke. PS. I have watched Joey race several times, and I'd love to know how he did a clutchless upshift without closing the throttle. Perhaps you could explain it. Erm...try downshift... And it wasn't a wind up... How many strimmers are 4 stroke??? Exactly - a minority... Also most of my upshifts are clutchless - and most race bikes have quick shifters which interupt the ignition for a split second which means - you guessed it - no need to drop the throttle.. Regards, Gixer Edited October 17, 2012 by gixer1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Also most of my upshifts are clutchless - and most race bikes have quick shifters which interupt the ignition for a split second which means - you guessed it - no need to drop the throttle.. Regards, Gixer You didn't upshift without closing the throttle, unless you had a quickshifter on your Aprilia ( which I doubt ). As for downshifting, well I had assumed that Joey would have closed the throttle on account of he would have been braking hard for the next bend. No point in braking and holding the throttle wide open is there ? Just a quick blip and it goes into gear. You'll see more 4stroke engines on power tools in future, but only on the hi-end stuff - my strimmer cost a fortune - the cheap low-end stuff will always have cheap low-end 2stroke engines. It's called progress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 You don't close the throttle on upshifts, just take the load off the gearbox by maintaining the current throttle position...and 2 stroke racing is all about maintaining corner speed - if you've ever ridden a motocross bike you'll know a lot of the time you'll work the clutch an never actually drop the throttle. Try a clutchless change on your Mille - they respond well to it especially if you like back wheel shenanigans.. I'm struggling to see where your info comes from on "high end" power tools - I don't think either husky or stihl list a single chainsaw in four stroke ...what's high end if not these? And why do the predominantly use 2 stroke? - you guessed it - high revs low load again... Regards, Gixer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catweazle Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 You don't close the throttle on upshifts, just take the load off the gearbox by maintaining the current throttle position...and 2 stroke racing is all about maintaining corner speed - if you've ever ridden a motocross bike you'll know a lot of the time you'll work the clutch an never actually drop the throttle. Try a clutchless change on your Mille - they respond well to it especially if you like back wheel shenanigans.. I'm struggling to see where your info comes from on "high end" power tools - I don't think either husky or stihl list a single chainsaw in four stroke ...what's high end if not these? And why do the predominantly use 2 stroke? - you guessed it - high revs low load again... Regards, Gixer I can upshift on my Mille by putting pressure on the lever and waiting until it hits the rev-limiter, but it's not the way to go fast because the revs are too far past peak power. Easing off the throttle and waiting for the load on the gears to allow the gear in would work, if i wasn't in a hurry. The best way by far is to put pressure on the lever and chop the throttle quickly partly closed and wide open again just past peak power, works a treat, as I've proven on roads all over the place and in the Ramsey Sprint. If you've been to a motocross race recently you'll have noticed how 4strokes are taking over, they're easier to ride and owners love them for their reliability. Chainsaws will get 4stroke engines if they can be made light enough, nothing to do with power, they're in quite a low state of tune anyway ( they don't have any choice because there isn't room for a proper expansion pipe on a saw ), all about weight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackinbox99 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 It's the same load of tosh people speak about ducati's - yes they can have problems but usually it's down to neglect - and the jap 4's can also suffer this. Hmmmm.. I bought a brand new Ducati 748 SPS back in 2000. Cost nearly £12k. Had loads of extras on it - carbon terminigini race cans, superchip, magnesium wheels, fully floating brakes etc. etc. I used it as my daily commuting bike to get to work on believe it or not. I know... not the typical commuting bike like a CG125, esp when I was doing about 70miles a day at the time. I did 500miles on it and then a valve dropped straight into one of the cylinders, destroying the head, liner & piston. Obviously under warranty so took it back to Ducati. They had it for 3 months. THREE MONTHS!!! whilst they fixed it, no courtesy car, no compensation nothing. They couldnt give a monkeys about me. Once that was fixed, i ended up doing another 8000miles on it with no problems at all before I sold it and bought an R1 and a VFR750. I used the VFR for commuting (nice big tank range, relaxed riding but still sporty enough to keep up with most sports bikes at the time) and the R1 for sheer mental fun. Apart from the Ducati I cant say ive had any other major problems with bikes and ive had no end. But, its like anything you get good ones and bad ones. Oh... i did blow the gearbox up on the R1 but that was through too many 2nd gear wheelies. I ended up fitting another whole engine / gearbox myself one Sunday morning as it was cheaper and easier than messing about having the old gearbox fixed. Bikes are cheap as chips these days, so for a couple of grand you can get some cracking machines. Id be looking at maybe a ZX6R, I had a 1998 model for a while and it was a great bike, easy to ride, more relaxed riding position than some sports bikes. The Fazer is another good first bike, or a bandit 600, or even the Honda Hornet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Mongrel- Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 You don't close the throttle on upshifts, just take the load off the gearbox by maintaining the current throttle position... Really? You want to change gear fast and get back on the gas to continue accelerating (otherwise why bother quick shifting) but you wait until the road speed matches engine revs in theory unloading the gearbox (not that it will because drag will always want to slow the bike), by which time you wouldn't be accelerating at all? I don't think so. Unless you have a quickshifter, you close the throttle to unload the box. Not fully admittedly, and only momentarily but, shut it to a degree you must. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gixer1 Posted October 18, 2012 Report Share Posted October 18, 2012 Really? You want to change gear fast and get back on the gas to continue accelerating (otherwise why bother quick shifting) but you wait until the road speed matches engine revs in theory unloading the gearbox (not that it will because drag will always want to slow the bike), by which time you wouldn't be accelerating at all? I don't think so. Unless you have a quickshifter, you close the throttle to unload the box. Not fully admittedly, and only momentarily but, shut it to a degree you must. Think what you like - I know how I ride my bikes....stopping the throttle and closing are two different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackinbox99 Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 Really? You want to change gear fast and get back on the gas to continue accelerating (otherwise why bother quick shifting) but you wait until the road speed matches engine revs in theory unloading the gearbox (not that it will because drag will always want to slow the bike), by which time you wouldn't be accelerating at all? I don't think so. Unless you have a quickshifter, you close the throttle to unload the box. Not fully admittedly, and only momentarily but, shut it to a degree you must. This has got me thinking actually. I never use the clutch on upshifts, but because its like second nature to me, ive no idea how far i actually back of the throttle when I do it. I think i just back of the throttle slightly enough to let the gear slip out and slot into the next cog, then back on full throttle - but its such a quick process. I certainly dont close the throttle, just back off it very slightly to take some of the pressure off. Thats on standard bikes with no ignition cut outs or quick shift kits fitted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikaveli Posted October 19, 2012 Report Share Posted October 19, 2012 (edited) This has got me thinking actually. I never use the clutch on upshifts, but because its like second nature to me, ive no idea how far i actually back of the throttle when I do it. I think i just back of the throttle slightly enough to let the gear slip out and slot into the next cog, then back on full throttle - but its such a quick process. I certainly dont close the throttle, just back off it very slightly to take some of the pressure off. Thats on standard bikes with no ignition cut outs or quick shift kits fitted. Me too, it's all a bit instinctive - my foot puts slight pressure on the gear lever and it seems to naturally click up when I back off the throttle - couldn't say by how much though. As gixer1 says though, with a proper quick-shifter you don't even need to do that. A few of my friends who race have them, they can't live without 'em. Edited October 19, 2012 by Mikaveli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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