jam1e Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Hi folks, Just dipping my toe in the water, so to speak. To try and establish the protocol regarding a 14 year old having an fac, obviously under strict supervision from me! Is there much hassle getting the fac through the police red tape? I've taken him out and he has been "punching paper" with a .22lr and loves it! Cheers Jamie Edited November 10, 2012 by jam1e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walshie Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Bill Harriman from BASC answers that exact question in the Shooting Times. http://www.shootingt..._age_limit.html I wouldn't imagine it would be too much problem as long as he can prove he has good reason for possessing a firearm. Hope this helps. Edited November 10, 2012 by walshie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizza22196 Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 only thing that you will need to bear in mind is you will need an empty slot for whichever caliber you want to give your lad so you can buy it on your licence then sign it over to his Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggiegun Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Hi Jamie, My son has had a FAC for while now. Its a pain, until 18 any rifle they want has to be gifted to them from you. My son has 22rf and 17 hmr on his ticket, I had to pay for variation for those calbres, buy the rifle and then gift it to him, on his ticket. Tricky one, cause he isn't going to be shooting without you there. Another thing is, I told FLO he has shot my rifle with me present and was told that he shouldn't have. Edited November 10, 2012 by reggiegun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 My nephew has had one since 13-14 years old. He shoots at least twice a week and brother in law justified it by saying he needed more .22's so he could get him a proper target rifle. He now has a couple of .22's, 1x .223, a slot for a .50cal and I think he has a .303. They can hold about 4000 .22 as they shoot so much. They have about 20 guns on ticket and some shotguns and as you can imagine the security is quite good. They are members at a range and the nephew was the youngest ever member. Security of the guns is not really an issue as he will never shoot alone and always supervised. As long as you can justify it it shouldn't be a problem. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted November 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Thanks for the reply folks. And the link. I'm aware he shouldn't be shooting one at all. As fac differs from sgc. Thats part of how i was wondering how to explain he's interested but with "shooting myself in the foot"! Sorry folks i couldn't resist! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted November 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 My nephew has had one since 13-14 years old. He shoots at least twice a week and brother in law justified it by saying he needed more .22's so he could get him a proper target rifle. He now has a couple of .22's, 1x .223, a slot for a .50cal and I think he has a .303. They can hold about 4000 .22 as they shoot so much. They have about 20 guns on ticket and some shotguns and as you can imagine the security is quite good. They are members at a range and the nephew was the youngest ever member. Security of the guns is not really an issue as he will never shoot alone and always supervised. As long as you can justify it it shouldn't be a problem. Harry Christ! What Police Force area do they live in? But thinking about it, i'm told if your in a rifle club for "target shooting" you can pretty much ask for what you want and get it? Thats what i'm told anyhow.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 Gloucestershire. Join a club and you can shoot what you want. As he was so young the other shooters really looked after him and let him have a go with all sorts of stuff you would never shoot in the field. They have black powder rifle and pistol, a collection of 303's, 308, 338, 223, 22 and some empty slots. They could not bring the guns to the farm until they got a variation permitting them shoot on approved ground so if you join a club make sure you ask for vermin as well. Harry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 10, 2012 Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Hi Jamie, My son has had a FAC for while now. Its a pain, until 18 any rifle they want has to be gifted to them from you. My son has 22rf and 17 hmr on his ticket, I had to pay for variation for those calbres, buy the rifle and then gift it to him, on his ticket. Tricky one, cause he isn't going to be shooting without you there. Another thing is, I told FLO he has shot my rifle with me present and was told that he shouldn't have. Obviously that does not show the full details of the situation but did you ask your FEO under which legislation he should not have fired your rifle? Yet another FEO without a clue on the face of it! Edited November 10, 2012 by Dekers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jam1e Posted November 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Gloucestershire. Join a club and you can shoot what you want. As he was so young the other shooters really looked after him and let him have a go with all sorts of stuff you would never shoot in the field. They have black powder rifle and pistol, a collection of 303's, 308, 338, 223, 22 and some empty slots. They could not bring the guns to the farm until they got a variation permitting them shoot on approved ground so if you join a club make sure you ask for vermin as well. Harry Cheers for the info Harry. Glous isn't far from me and i am struggling to find a club that will even let me use my .204 cf, and has decent facilities worth travelling a reasonable distance for. What club is it the young lad attends, or both of you if thats the case? Cheers Jamie Edited November 10, 2012 by jam1e Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baconbuttie Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 As far as I recall, minors shouldn't use firearms except on HO-approved ranges unless they have a ticket. As they can't own a firearm, and you can only let an adult use one of yours in your presence, there isn't scope to teach under-FAC-age kids to shoot except at a range. When my FEO was here he claimed that my 10-yo could use my HMR, I questioned this but he was adamant. So I checked up elsewhere to be sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Harry Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 Jamie you have PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 11, 2012 Report Share Posted November 11, 2012 i had one from 14 in your description technically he wont own any firearms and as such you will have to be with him and using your firearms and acta as his mentor perfect scenario IMO means when he applies for firearms of his own he will be (or should be!) granted an open FAC explain your intentions clearly and there should be no issue Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 As far as I recall, minors shouldn't use firearms except on HO-approved ranges unless they have a ticket. As they can't own a firearm, and you can only let an adult use one of yours in your presence, there isn't scope to teach under-FAC-age kids to shoot except at a range. When my FEO was here he claimed that my 10-yo could use my HMR, I questioned this but he was adamant. So I checked up elsewhere to be sure. Where did you check? There is nothing to stop a 5 year old pulling the trigger on your rifle, it doesn't have to be at a range! Do not mix up owning, carrying, giving, receiving etc with shooting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Borrowed rifles on private premises 6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person to borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier. However, the occupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions of the certificate. These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases, territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm. There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances. A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or “landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 Borrowed rifles on private premises 6.16 Section 16(1) of the 1988 Act enables a person to borrow a rifle from the occupier of private premises and to use it on those premises in the presence of either the occupier or their servant without holding a firearm certificate in respect of that rifle. It should be noted that this gives slightly more flexibility in the use of a borrowed rifle than is permissible with the use of a shot gun as described in paragraph 6.14, in that the borrowed rifle can also be used in the presence of the servant of the occupier. However, the occupier and/or their servant must hold a firearm certificate in respect of the firearm being used, and the borrower, who must be accompanied by the certificate holder (whether it is the occupier or their servant), must comply with the conditions of the certificate. These may include a safekeeping requirement and, in some cases, territorial restrictions. Section 57(4) of the 1968 Act defines “premises” as including any land. The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate. The exemption does not extend to persons under the age of 17 or to other types of firearm. There is no notification required on the loan of a firearm under these circumstances. A borrowed rifle should not be specifically identified as such on a “keeper’s” or “landowner’s” firearm certificate. The term “in the presence of” is not defined in law but is generally interpreted as being within sight and earshot. Was that a response to my post above? That says you cannot lend a gun to anyone under 17, it also says The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate, it doesn't say your 5 year old can't pull the trigger on your .308! Hence why I said........ "Do not mix up owning, carrying, giving, receiving etc with shooting!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reggiegun Posted November 12, 2012 Report Share Posted November 12, 2012 I wanted to book some accompanied deer stalking for my son and I using an estate rifle, but was told because my son was under 18 he would not be able to use an estate rifle. They then said it would be ok for him to watch me shoot, but for some reason my son was not happy about that. Reggiegun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Was that a response to my post above? That says you cannot lend a gun to anyone under 17, it also says The effect of the provision is to allow a person visiting a private estate to borrow and use a rifle without a certificate, it doesn't say your 5 year old can't pull the trigger on your .308! Hence why I said........ "Do not mix up owning, carrying, giving, receiving etc with shooting!" shooting is shooting, carrying is covered under the same "borrow" element of the estate rifle, use under supervision of an FAC holder of a specific age if borrower is not of a specific age. owning is self explanatory borrowing is to use but not own. don't worry about the private estate part, it matters not whether it is in the highlands of Scotland or your mates back field. too many people think that the "estate rifle" clause only applies to bought days on private estates. It does not, it is the clause that allows non FAC holders to use firearms under the supervision of FAC holders on land they have authority for. Don't get me wrong, its b0ll0cks and happens all the time but the amended Firearms Act does not allow under 17 year olds to shoot rifles without an FAC it doesn't matter if you are lying next to them with one hand on the stock or on the other side of a field in eye line and earshot. If that person is in control (and by that I mean pointing and pulling the trigger) of that rifle they are "using" it and have "borrowed it" as they do not own it. why else would they have a provision for 14yr olds to apply for an FAC when they cant buy firearms or ammunition? its the clause that say "14yr olds can "shoot" firearms, owned by someone else" this is not to be confused with clubs, ranges, OTC etc etc Can I Borrow a Rifle? http://www.countryside-alliance.org/ca/article/faqs A person who does not hold a firearm certificate may borrow a rifle (the ‘estate rifle’) from the occupier of private land and use it on that land in the presence of the occupier or the occupier’s servant. “Servant” would be taken to include a stalker, gamekeeper or ghillie employed by the occupier. · The borrower must be aged 17 years or older. If the borrower is 17 years old, then the lender must be aged 18 years or over. · The rifle may only be used on the occupier’s land. · The occupier’s servant, if accompanying the borrower, must hold a firearm certificate for the estate rifle. · All conditions on the lender’s firearm certificate must be complied with. Relevant Act(s): Section 16 (1) Firearms Amendment Act 1988 http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&ved=0CFcQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.basc.org.uk%2Fdownload.cfm%2Fdocid%2FF5F7DD08-9471-4DF6-AD6B7F1FD074B235&ei=LBmiUKGCC8iq0AXDz4G4Bw&usg=AFQjCNFZ66rheG291nlVkcGA4dIPoPfyig&sig2=pXIzLhFui278pmhwiJSG-A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekers Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 Do you seriously think vast quantities of Farmers/gamekeepers children, and Prince William and Harry, etc, etc never fired a gun as youngsters! So, you are saying they are all due for 5 years (and their parents) and then a permanent ban on firearms/shotgun ownership afterwards! Or are we saying everyone breaks the law, so what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewsher500 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 we are not talking about shotguns here. that comes with its own bull we are talking about rifles and yes, anyone caught giving a child a rifle without them having an FAC is probably going to be frowned upon by the police but yes, it is a ******** rule, not enforced probably because it is almost unenforceable, I had one from 14 for this reason, pretty sure that was down so I could use the ,270 but prior to that I am damn sure we went lamping with the .22. I am also pretty sure it has changed since I was 14...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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