matty* Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 hi all, my little cocker is coming along nicely she is 16 months old now loves working ditches, never goes to fair comes when called and retrieves well for her age. now off the lead she will walk to heel ok. i put her on the lead shes ok but as soon as we start to walk she pulls like mad. ive tried waving a twig in front of her while walking, tried a treat in my hand and a chock chain but nothing seems to be working. im really pleased with everything else just struggling with her heeling on a lead if any one noes of anything else i could try i would be great full. thanks matty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 hate to say it and I don't agree with them and I've never used one but an electric collar might be the only answer, or loads of patients & work ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty* Posted November 18, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 yea im trying everytime shes on the lead, im being very patient but seeing little improvement. i understand things take time but with seeing no improvement i must be doing somthing rong, well it feels that way. she a bright little dog and as loyal as can be just wish i could sort this problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 The dog is getting confidence from being on a leash. When off the leash it isn't confident enough to walk far from you. Two thing to try; Firstly, as soon as it pulls drop your end of the leash, turn 90 degrees or 180 degrees and continue to walk away from the dog. If my theory is right the dog will heel up and walk to heel trailing the leash. If so, try to pick up the leash without breaking your stride too much and praise the dog while it is in the right position.i.e at heel. Repeat as necessary. Second thing is to walk with the dog at heel on the leash and change direction quickly and often without warning. This keeps the dog's eye on you rather than dragging you behind it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFN Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 Exactly the same with mine, walks to heel but on the lead just wants to pull. She's not interested in food or treats when she wants to get on and the only way I can stop it is by constant reminding and stopping, calling to heal and only walking again when the lead us slack. It's really annoying and time consuming but she's hardly ever on the lead so I can live with it for now. Cockers don't respond well to negative training but they can be headstrong and stubbon. Not much help, sorry. I'll look forward to other, more knowledgeable peoples ideas. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamechef Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 can i ask what is happening differently that your dog will heel off lead...but wont heel on? my dog was the other way round.. as you know< you have to be so careful not to get too heavy handed,sounds like you have the makings of a good dog' would be a shame to spoil it.....buuttt ,i understand the reason and need to get a handle on the situation...i would take a long hard look at what is creating the different behaviour in the dog..and just keep at it...its painful i know.. keep on at the dog until he decides that you are not going to give up and decides to accept is fate.Sometimes that can be a long road with cockers.....might be a good time to reassert your position of rank with him/her...and take the dog back over its basic training...accepting only 100%....it never hurts lol.i make it sound so easy..wish i could take my own advice... good luck Daz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamechef Posted November 18, 2012 Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 The dog is getting confidence from being on a leash. When off the leash it isn't confident enough to walk far from you. Two thing to try; Firstly, as soon as it pulls drop your end of the leash, turn 90 degrees or 180 degrees and continue to walk away from the dog. If my theory is right the dog will heel up and walk to heel trailing the leash. If so, try to pick up the leash without breaking your stride too much and praise the dog while it is in the right position.i.e at heel. Repeat as necessary. Second thing is to walk with the dog at heel on the leash and change direction quickly and often without warning. This keeps the dog's eye on you rather than dragging you behind it. sounds like poacher has a very good point.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Will she heel draging the leash behind her without you holding it? heeling on and off the leash to a dog are two different things. I am wondering is the pulling thing a case of when the leash goes on? my 13mnth old lab is terrible walking on the leash correctly at times of high exitement / anticipation the trick is lots of sudden direction changes but that aint always convienient Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 hate to say it and I don't agree with them and I've never used one but an electric collar might be the only answer, or loads of patients & work ! why recomend that which you have never done and don't even agree with? frankly thats left me stunned! a true forum thread classic. if correction is the right course of action then the fact that its on a slip lead should be sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
working dog Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Agree its back to basics. You could try stopping as soon as the dog goes in front and not walking again until the dog is at heel. Then walking on again until the dog is in front - repeat. This is really frustrating but the dog will get the message eventually. Another to try if your dog is ball driven is to hold your ball in your left hand and get the dog to focus on the ball as yorue heeling. After a few steps at heel, throw the ball behind you for the dog to fetch (stops the dog anticipating and running forward for his ball). Do this after a few steps and build it up rather than heeling the dog until it fails Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadSpringer Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 why recomend that which you have never done and don't even agree with? frankly thats left me stunned! a true forum thread classic. if correction is the right course of action then the fact that its on a slip lead should be sufficient. Well said Kent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) why recomend that which you have never done and don't even agree with? frankly thats left me stunned! a true forum thread classic. if correction is the right course of action then the fact that its on a slip lead should be sufficient. I've saw electric collars used at shoots were dogs are used for beatin & pickin up and they weren't workin, they were drivin the dogs mad with either shocks or high pitched noises, this is the reason I wouldn't use them on my dogs, hence my other comments on the subject. No wonder fellas are startin threads on 'what's happening to PW' with replies like yours ! unlike you I was tryin to help the guy out with some friendly advice but then obviously you know better Edited November 19, 2012 by P~MX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kent Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 I've saw electric collars used at shoots were dogs are used for beatin & pickin up and they weren't workin, they were drivin the dogs mad with either shocks or high pitched noises, this is the reason I wouldn't use them on my dogs, hence my other comments on the subject. No wonder fellas are startin threads on 'what's happening to PW' with replies like yours ! unlike you I was tryin to help the guy out with some friendly advice but then obviously you know better You hated them so much you recomended them - think about that a minute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Dogs get confidence from being on a leash. Same as a dog will bark at someone from behind a fence yet won't go through an open gate to get closer to the thing they are barking at. The clue is where the OP says that his dog doesn't stray far off the leash. The dog isn't confident enough to hunt the next county off leash as some dogs would, but once it has the handler's support through the leash connection it strains to get forward. Break the connection / support by dropping the leash and then trade on the dog's insecurity by walking a different direction. The dog will follow. The important part is to drop the leash and change direction as soon as the dog pulls. Stopping and starting, changing direction is all guaranteed to stop the dog focussing on anything but you. You really need to keep at it as obedience is the bedrock of all training. Anybody can get a dog to hunt. Getting a dog to hunt under control is a different matter altogether. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 You hated them so much you recomended them - think about that a minute! sounds similar to another thread you were commentin on earlier when you disagreed with someone else's idea's -- "that's my opinion" and if you don't like then you don't have to comment ! goin and play with your friends in the play ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamechef Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 (edited) lets not get off the point guys...each to their own eh? the chap is asking for advice...and i understand both views..but only agree with one...that is my viewpoint and we are all entitled to them... i personally would never use that kind of pressure on an animal that was supposed to be my working partner.Partnerships of all sorts have their off days...suffice to say that ultimately the dog only wants to please...you just have to get the message across that its you he needs to be pleasing and not himself...sometimes that can take a while....lets face it , sometimes that can take a while, even with humans interaction...let alone a dog...and also while im on the point, we shouldnt credit the dog withe more brains than it has.... my two are worlds apart and i would not have it any other way! your dog is still young and will settle down still more...keep at it....go back to basics..over and over again...its an on going battle..especialy with cockers... it is worth the effort. the fact that your dog heels at all..means he knows what to do...the communication needs to be improved from your end... good luck Edited November 19, 2012 by gamechef Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 I've saw electric collars used at shoots were dogs are used for beatin & pickin up and they weren't workin, they were drivin the dogs mad with either shocks or high pitched noises, this is the reason I wouldn't use them on my dogs, hence my other comments on the subject. No wonder fellas are startin threads on 'what's happening to PW' with replies like yours ! unlike you I was tryin to help the guy out with some friendly advice but then obviously you know better How are you trying to help the guy out? From your description I'd say that you've never seen an electric collar on a dog. And, how you can justify the recommendation of one for this problem given your stated views on them is unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P~MX Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 How are you trying to help the guy out? From your description I'd say that you've never seen an electric collar on a dog. And, how you can justify the recommendation of one for this problem given your stated views on them is unbelievable. another know it all that thinks no one else is entitled to their opinion -- people like you aren't worth talkin to !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matty* Posted November 19, 2012 Author Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Thanks guys for all ur replys im not going dwn electric collar route its somthing i just wouldn't want to do, each to there own. Thanks for all the advice im given her my all and lots of time , if thats what it takes then so be it. Im gonna try the tips you guys have posted and ill keep u informd of how it goes. Thanks again. matty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new to the flock Posted November 19, 2012 Report Share Posted November 19, 2012 Matty, Have a read through the training to heel in the pinned obediance training thread. NTTF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
working dog Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 I posted in the latest e-collar thread that I own one and have used it on occasion. This is one of those times that I would not use an e-collar. It is usually more difficult to get the dog to heel off lead so youve done the tricky part already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren m Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 i,ve only ever seen two handlers that have spaniels that walk perfectly to heel ( of course there maybe more ) one is madspringer the other is David lisset . people make the mistake ( as i did after reading joe irvin or moxon ) of giving too much free running to spaniels and NOT teaching heel as the 1st proper lesson before or even during natural hunting . never come across a spaniel that wont hunt but know loads that wont heel just my opinion and i,m thinking mainly of beating dogs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) Use a slip rope lead not a collar sit her up command heel as you take your first step she will in turn likely start to drive step on past you. Before she gets into her stride as soon as you take your first step sharply, very sharply, pull her back into place dont give a long winded drawn out pull on the lead, it has to be sharp enough to shock her or take her focus away from pulling like a husky. Repeat until you can take a couple of steps then do the same again. It is important she is rewarded at the correct time when she heels or gets things right. It's considered less important to have a spaniel right at heel like you would a lab. Primarily, a spaniels job is to hunt to produce a shot for the gun, a dog with a high amount of drive (contolled drive) is desireable. I dont know many who would try to harshly instill heel over hunting at an early age although this is of course dependant on the individual dog and handlers needs or requirements. Use a longer leader not a shorter one if you are teaching heel. Let her feel the slack of the leader resting on her back and at the same time reward her with whatever floats her boat. She should soon start to enjoy feeling the slack of the leader on her back. It works for me. So far! Edited November 20, 2012 by zeroin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UKPoacher Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 i,ve only ever seen two handlers that have spaniels that walk perfectly to heel ( of course there maybe more ) one is madspringer the other is David lisset . people make the mistake ( as i did after reading joe irvin or moxon ) of giving too much free running to spaniels and NOT teaching heel as the 1st proper lesson before or even during natural hunting . never come across a spaniel that wont hunt but know loads that wont heel just my opinion and i,m thinking mainly of beating dogs That's what I said earlier. You don't train a spaniel to work, you allow it. You have to train a spaniel to work under control. That's the difference and if you don't get the obedience in early it is often too late. Other than my own I can't remember seeing a beating dog that would work off leash under full control; i.e. work left and right, back and forward and heel on command. And I've been beating on and off for around twenty-five years. Loads of people brag about the hunting qualities of their dogs, but ask them to stop the dog hunting and they can't. My own dog retired at the end of last season. I could walk through a field of poults with the dog off leash at heel. She would work in dense woodland clearing a bush or brambles and returning on command, taking directions to the next area and returning despite birds being flushed and shot all around us. She would never win a prize for style or bravery, but when they needed a steady dog to clear gardens or roadside verges, she was the one. And when every dog went off after the hares, she carried on working. She was trained on obedience, whistles and hand signals before she was allowed to hunt and flush. That's the secret. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroin Posted November 20, 2012 Report Share Posted November 20, 2012 (edited) That's what I said earlier. You don't train a spaniel to work, you allow it. You have to train a spaniel to work under control. That's the difference and if you don't get the obedience in early it is often too late. Other than my own I can't remember seeing a beating dog that would work off leash under full control; i.e. work left and right, back and forward and heel on command. And I've been beating on and off for around twenty-five years. Loads of people brag about the hunting qualities of their dogs, but ask them to stop the dog hunting and they can't. My own dog retired at the end of last season. I could walk through a field of poults with the dog off leash at heel. She would work in dense woodland clearing a bush or brambles and returning on command, taking directions to the next area and returning despite birds being flushed and shot all around us. She would never win a prize for style or bravery, but when they needed a steady dog to clear gardens or roadside verges, she was the one. And when every dog went off after the hares, she carried on working. She was trained on obedience, whistles and hand signals before she was allowed to hunt and flush. That's the secret. The secret is no secret really. Restrict, hinder or discourage a dogs drive too mutch early on and this is what you get as you state with yours "No prizes for bravery". The people that brag about their dogs hunting qualities that have problems stopping their dogs, have problems training stop, not heel. With respect, a lab will do all of the above you say your dog does or did, why a spaniel? Controlling a springer whilst it hunts hard should be made easier through early training. This early training does not necessarily have to include any heelwork as far as using a leader is concerned. Edited November 20, 2012 by zeroin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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