Kents GWP

[kent]

I think its time to do a steve coogan and tell the full story as it was, rather than be judged on pure fabrication and sensationalised highlights. This might effect some peoples view of the breed or myslef, it might effect some people fanatialy but i simply cannot do anything but tell the truth as it happened.

why did i not do this sooner you might wonder? well to be honest the loss of the dog still effects me emotionally and i do stuggle to both admit that and also was brought up in such a way that i feel quite wrongly emotions are a sign of weakness. Perhaps i feel things were actually my fault But i cannot be doing with this whole fiasco so here it is.

 

just over a year ago my GWP male dog "otto" was put to sleep following the events i am about to describe. He was a very large and muscular 47 kg dog of German and Danish lines, bred in scotland the sire is no longer around having met an accident at work and the bitch is too old to hold another litter. Only one other pup is known of and it has become quite a well known tracking dog. Mine was to be primarily a tool of stalking and foxing but the goal was one dog to do everything so for me that meant a little rough shooting, wildfowling and rabbiting - not something i will try again because too many contradictions arrise and you never have time to realy wed it to anything anyway what happened is as follows.

 

during a lamping excursion i had a guest rifle who was unused to shooting foxes though an excelent and safe shot who i had previously guided in Scotland sucsessfully for three Roe in a day. Anyway the shot was taken fox dropped to a frontal chest shot and the dog was sent on to ensure all was over , awaiting our arrival. Anyway the guest now keen as mustard to inspect his first "lamped fox" goes charging in to be met by a very angry hound. I stopped the dog backed the guest off and let things cool down, which they soon did and the dog was soon back at heel carrying the vixen like nothing had occured. Neither myself or the guest took any delivery we just walked on till Otto got bored and after a few hundred yards dropped it and we walked on ( i did not want to push any possesion issues as simply there was no point i saw that the dog reacted in the heat of the moment and knew from previous had he not charged in the dog would have released it to me no issue). Anyway this was not a growl this was fangs beared come any closer and your dead stuff, 15 mins later a different dog! this was the first sign something was maybee up but i passed over it.

 

Next incedent i had shot a rabbit, dog sent out to collect in to heel walking a little odd " stiff legged is the best description" and drops it at my feet. i kick the bunny back to the dog commanding "fetch it up" so as not to encourage what was an unusually poor delivery. dogs eyes go blood red (litrally the whites go red) and he throws a strop - i walk into him with a stern voice of rembuke and then walk away ignooring both the rabbit on the floor and the dog, he picks it up and delivers it like nothing happened. Now i am thinking something weird is happening here. i do a little research on possesion issues and come across "rage syndrome" also "springer spaniel range" apparently a form of epilepcy that gives physical and mental symtoms of stiff legged walks and these outbursts. Its especially common when the animal is exited by feed times etc. and is often taken to be food/ resource garding until it presents itself in other ways. Its on the net google it. Being only half convinced i admit. Anyway i have two kids so i elected for them to keep well clear of the dog, it being kenneled anyway.

 

now for the third and final incedent. As i say there are many contradictions if you train a dog for so many different tasks. i have done similar previously with Lurchers. Lamping -dont put your nose down and no jumping were possible, ferreting use your nose, hares? jumping essential as rarely do things end in one field unless you live in Norfolk were the fields are far bigger than our moors littered with dry stone walls. anyway i digress i was getting him ready for the wildfowling having already been out dogless on low water gathering a few teal for cold retrieves it being some time from his limited first season gone. I am blessed with some great training ground at home with a variety of cover and open areas and i can and do put a lot of time into this, so hide a few duck get dog from kennel and send him out to pick each one.

sending him into a duck hidden in the rush bed he winds it from the perimiter but seems to stuggle actually rooting through the thick rushes to pin point an pick it, it takes some time! Dog comes back to me duck in mouth i reach down to except the retrieve and dog tilts his head down and to the side as if possesing it just a little - then Bang! the dog is up feet on my upper chest jaws going for the throat (remember this is a dog that knows how to finish the game) I grab either side of his neck to stop this attack in its tracks and the dog manages a light strike on my left forarm and a heavy hold on my right. Jaws clamped down hard! I move forwards throwing the dogs balance and taking the fight to him unable to do little more than keep him off balance with a few kicks to the dogs lower regoin as added defence i get him maybee the 60yds to the kennel and litrally swing / sling him in, slamming the door. Now you note there is no gun and no marsh, the connection being the possesion of the teal that started this outburst or perhaps Petti mall type epileptic attack? "range syndrome". Bleeding quite proffusely from my right arm i go into the house to remove by coat and clothing and survey the damage. My right arm is a mess my wife helps me clean it up we say nothing to the kids, drop them at the Grans and i spend the night in hospital. checking the kennel was locked and bolted before we set off the dog is at the door wagging his tail like nothing had just occured . The discusion me and the wife then have is simple logistics. Two kids of 6 and 11 at the time, not a dog you could or should pass on ( i had actually turned down a good offer a short while ago)- not something you can "train your way out of" keeping the animal would be crazy. i am 15 stone with a 36" waist and 46" chest my wife is maybee 9st at best if it had happened to her i doubt she would still be here, the kids well lets not go there. the dog had to go. The deed was done the following day by arrangement.

 

I have only ever put this dog and one other down and have had quite a few in my mid forties now i spent all my younger days with the Line of lurchers i have spoke of on here previous ending with the last that was put to sleep at 13 just prior to the birth of my eldest. Most unfortunatly met with accidents at work, my best ever hit by a train. i cried for ages after loosing kye before my daughters birth and though this might sound strange him too despite my collection of scars that he added to with a hum dinger on my right that is my only momentum. He had been a pain with sheep having spent his life around them and having the usual switch across the butt the first time he raised his eyes thier way as a puppy, later he decided in adolecence they were fair game and back on the quarry list totally out of the blue (we live on a sheep farm btw) he broke heel jumped fence and bayed one like a wounded deer, rollicing of hell he got and a walked him off thinking 2wont do that again" and off over back fence and blow me he pins one!. He was eventually cured of this by the 'lectric collar- did this contribute? This is why i suport thier use, was it something in his training? All those questions came into my head and still do i supose whatever the outcome the dog no longer exists and things are better that way but it dont stop the emotions even as i type this.

 

So no mad fowler chasing a dog across the marsh with gun in hand coz it ran in, stole the pasty or other terrible wrong doing etc. I have consulted with two pro gundog guys. One i think to be the best HPR man in the country the other maybee the best trainer breeder and handler of our age, i am not going to name drop but both keep GWP's as thier own dogs both said they should do exactly the same and one suggested it being examined by the minsitry vets for brain tumour but he was and is laid to rest. Personally i couldnt ever face another

 

 

 

 

[kent]

by the way i shall not be responding to this thread or communicating further on the matter judge my actions as you will

[zeroin]

Interesting that you mention this 'rage syndrome' and it's possible connection to food.

 

A: you make no mention of trying to establish this using the dogs feeding time in the kennel with it's food, I think anyone, or at least most, would have done this before embarking on future outings. Sounds like possesive behaviour, nothing more than that. Reconditioning of the dog and it's attitude job.

 

B: I have not googled this 'syndrome' nor am I going to but one thing I do know is- if I send a dog for a retrieve of any kind the last thing on it's mind is food. The first thing on it's mind is collect and back to the gaffer. I'm no pro trainer with endless training opportunities but to be making the connection to food in this situation yet not when being fed it's own food is strange, I trust, through the dogs life on a regular basis you had both given and taken away food to the dog at feeding times?

 

I have to say, this 'story' as you put it, or the one Lee put to the forum which could well have been about the same dog or might not have been, does not suprise me in the least. I have read your posts over quite a period of time and have at times been amazed by the lack of courtesy you have shown some members on here, me included, and especially members that question your training techniques or other 'theories'. It is the latter that I have the biggest problem with, not the fact you seem to have had problems in the past regarding the training of your own dogs, we all have that, no matter how good a trainer someone is, we sometimes get it wrong. Recognising where we got it wrong is important though for future development... and our dogs' welfare. Personally, I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with anyone and debating it out, it's healthy and there's often something to be learned, but in my opinion, you sometimes get backed into a corner regarding your theories (at times) and instead of seeing another side, or explaining you reasoning, you tend to either bend the subject, posters posts, or just simply order, 'off with his head moderators' he's no place on here.

 

In a post on another thread (cocker with heel problems), within a very short space of time, you had judged me, sentenced me, and pushed the execution button, without even thinking about it. This was after you had suggested I had said things in my posts which clearly I had not ( the posts are there in black & white). This is not an arguement about who is/was right or wrong in the thread, simply a point of note regarding your judgement and haste following the posts. Maybe you are as hasty in your dog training and decisions regarding your dogs as you are on public forum with people, who knows?

[al4x]

I'm with zeroin mostly, its a large male entire dog of a breed which has on the continent had its lines pushed into a hard hunting dog with plenty of stamina, have an entire male and in the right environment dominance issues and you get this sort of occurrence. Its got little to do with confusion over type of work, its certainly not cocker rage and the epliepsy issues stemmed from some dodgy interbreeding in the Uk on the continent they are far more careful so its unlikely. Its probably down to the wrong choice of dog for your situation and why you now suggest people don't go for the hottest available. Pretty nasty situation though very different to my one of the same breed currently keeping my feet warm under the desk.

[gixer1]

I also have to agree with Zeroin and find you are extremely pig headed and seem to push a "know it all" attitude - even when exposed as failing on an issue you seem to write war and peace on how it was everyone elses fault and how you have "two pro gundog guys. One i think to be the best HPR man in the country the other maybe the best trainer breeder and handler of our age" agreement that you are the master of all things fieldsport and modern science should have to investigate heavily as if you couldn't sort it then it must be a medical marvel.....why not just say you had a mess up like all humans do at some point?

 

I am by no means any dog trainer - everything my labs know has been through just walking them and them teaching there selves - in fact I recently text a friend a text that read "from buddy dog - he says your two favorite beaters will be there on saturday" - he replied with "tell buddy to bring the half trained human"

 

I have to say the war and peace seems like a bit of a panic excuse in response to someone outing you and I have to say if i was a dog i think i'd bite you too....

 

Realise that there are always people who will do things better and that there is simply not enough time in a life to be an expert on all things.

 

Hope the next dog or current one goes better.

 

Respectfully,

 

Gixer

[Catweazle]

It's worrying that there weren't warning signs from the dog. I've been bitten by one of my Dobermans because I ignored the warning signs that he wasn't going to easily give up the piece of rubber toy he had just thrown up on the lawn. The signs were there though, the stiff legs, lowered head, low growl, looking sideways at me. I was foolish enough to grab his collar from the front and pull him away, a quick flick of his neck and I have a hole in my arm. I gave him a couple of good kicks which was wrong, I reacted out of anger, it was more my fault than his and he was backing away with his (metaphorical) tail between his legs.

 

Strange that I can take away any food, bones, or toys from this dog, but if he's thrown up some food or a bit of toy he is very possessive about it. I can say "leave" when he is chewing a piece of fresh meat and he'll drop it. Now, if he has thrown up something bad for him, I give him plenty of verbal commands and a chance to think about his place and leave it for me, which he will after a few seconds throught.

 

Kents dog didn't give warning signs, it actually left it's prize and attacked, in my mind that's not simple possessive behaviour. I still trust my dog because he gave me the signs and I was stupid to ignore them, if he had snapped without warning then he'd be dead by now. I think Kent did the right thing.

[WGD]

Sometimes they flip, the breeding has it in there.

 

A conversation with a good friend recently involved a similar story about a wirehaired HPR, to quote "some of these things give you a look and you don't know whether they're going to lick you or bite you".

 

In kent's position, I'd have had it PTS without a second thought. Possesive behaviour, resource guarding, rehabilitation options... all that jazz, not for me - the dog can't be trusted, end of dog.

[-Mongrel-]

I think Kent did the right thing.

 

The final decision was correct undoubtedly. You can not have a large, powerful, aggressive, untrustworthy dog around kids, end of. It also wouldn't be fair to pass it on and make it someone elses problem even with their knowledge, can you imagine how you'd feel if it did serious damge to them?

 

That said, what went on to bring on this set of problems will probably never be known, but, the fact that Kent has now had two of his dogs take chunks out of him would suggest a training problem perhaps? I've also had dogs since I was 12, I'm now 43 and not one of them has ever tried to bite me. Not saying I'm a great dog man, but purely suggesting there may be something awry in Kents training protocol...or he's plain unlucky.

 

I too have been on the sharp end of Kent's superior and arrogant posting style and attitude. The man doesn't seem to be able to accept he may not be the foremost expert on any given subject. I deal with it by generally refusing to respond to his posts and keeping my thoughts in my head.

[kent]

A CORRECTION

 

I have not been bitten by any other dog i have ever owned or trained, the other was PTS in view of age and the pending birth of my first daughter.

[chris o]

I have had the pleasure of meeting and shooting with kent and trust me he is not what half you guys say or create a opinion of him. That's thje problem with writting things down you don't see the person and facial expressions. He is actually a good guy patient and knoledgable. But I think he has done the right thing I have two step sons and a lady and unfortunatly if a dog of mine did anything similar I wouldn't have to think or discuss about what I would do. It would be in the vets before I went to a hospital to be seen to.

But seriosly guys give kent a break. It may read aggressive or disrespectful but if you met and got to know him you will change your opinions of him.

[pontbeck]

No doubt Kent did the right thing, no one should keep a dog as unreliable and aggressive as he described. The breed does need careful handling and in the right hands are terrific dogs, we have 3 on our beat one stand one shoot and they are very calm. Two are owned by a pro stalker and are good at both jobs, stalking and picking up. I trust all of these dogs and feel comfortable around them, they have changed my opinion of the breed.

25 years ago my daughter was asked to judge a local dog show. She decided to wear sunglasses as she had conjunctivitis , all was going well until the gundog class came into the ring. She approached the GWP in the correct manner, from the front making the dog feel comfortable. As she moved her hands over the dog it turned and lunged at her face crunching the sunglasses, they looked like they`d been run over by a car. If it had not been for the glasses my daughter would have been scared for life. The owner of the dog was apologetic but then told us he had entered another dog show and the same thing had happened.

Some breeds need experienced, knowledgeable owners to keep control. GWP`s are bred to have some aggression and require handling accordingly.

[oscarsdad]

Sorry to hear you had to destroy the dog - undoubtedly the right decision and it sounds like you were lucky to just be bitten on the arm.