bad 17hmr Groups, why??

[gixer1]

Bad shooting? :yp:

[Gregthegreat]

Bad shooting? :yp:

This could well be it but bad shooting could be down to a number of factors.

 

Just to add, it's not wind as there is a vertical error as well as horizontal. Wind would be purely horizontal.

 

If you look at your last target picture, the majority of those rounds would have hit a Coke bottle given the size of your group.

 

You need to start closer and eliminate the possibilities.

[lewis2012]

This could well be it but bad shooting could be down to a number of factors.

 

Just to add, it's not wind as there is a vertical error as well as horizontal. Wind would be purely horizontal.

 

If you look at your last target picture, the majority of those rounds would have hit a Coke bottle given the size of your group.

 

You need to start closer and eliminate the possibilities.

Any ideas mate?

[Gregthegreat]

As my first post above buddy and as Gimlet says also. Start with the basics.

[Frenchieboy]

Thing is its brand new, how will I knw if its touching? Run paper along the underside of barrell and stock?

To check of the barrel is touching any of the woodwork on the forend run a £5 or £10 down between the barrel and the forend. It should slide down without catching. If it doesn't then you have found one of the potential problems. You will be quite surprised at what a difference this can make if your barrel is not free floating on a CZ452! A little tip that I found was after you had made sure that the barrel was completely free floating try to groove in the coat the woodwork where it covers the underside of the barrel with some waterproofing (A few good of coats of Tru Oil or similar worked into the woodwork or even a coat of varnish). Without this it is possible (All be it a slim possibility) that if the rifle gets damp while out shooting the wood can swell a little and leave it touching the barrel again.

When cleaning the barrel do not forget to strip and clean the moderator. The HMR can (At times) be a little messy and leave a bit of residue in the moderator, particularly if it is a short barrel. While you have the moderator stripped down check the baffles. I had my HMR cut down to a 16 inch barrel which improved on the accuracy a little but it also started to burn the SAK baffle tube a little so it's worth checking that too.

As a point of interest, if your SAK moderator is damaged in any way or the baffles are starting to burn you can contact Jackson Rifles and they will replace it for a nominal cost!

If it were me I would ;- Check that the barrel is free floating and if not cure that problem first. Then I would thoroughly clean the barrel. Next I would check that the moderator is clean and free from any residue or and check for burning or signs of the bullet clipping the moderator. Finally I would check the scope mounting (And all other screws on the rifle) and then go back to re-zeroing (In as windless conditions as possible) and take it from there making a point of using the same ammunition all the time (My HMR used to really like Hornady Red or Blue tips in 17g but hated 20g ammunition). You also need to remember that you could well find that it takes a few rounds to bring your rifle back to a reasonably acceptable group after a thorough cleaning.

Hope this helps and that you get it sorted mate!

[kent]

first thing is clean it, properly with solvent and a bore guide, good parker hale type rod and patches. Next Check scope mounts and action screws are correctly tensioned. If it don't shoot after that, put it into the hands of a person of proven ability. If I was pressed to give an opinion on the targets shown I should say poor trigger dwell time and flinching (actually closing your eyes the moment of release would not surprise me), shooting at around 100yds is very different to say 30 yds as it tends to magnify your mistakes. These comments about ability might be misplaced but you should eliminate them non the less via handing the gun to a proven shooter. Just consider how many so called persons of ability cannot pass the DSC level 1 shooting test first go every time and that only needs 4" at 100yds

Edited December 24, 2012 by kent

[al4x]

ok before anyone can comment there are a few things we need to know, is this a new scope? those groups are extreme and unlikely to be wind, or lack of cleaning if it shot ok before. As you have played with scopes is this a different unknown scope? all the things like floating barrel etc should have been apparent before

[Frenchieboy]

Just a bit of an addition to my pervious post which might help you while zeroing your rifle:

When zeroing (And of course when shooting out in the field) always try to use a reasonable quality bipod - Sometimes these "budget" bipods that you can get from Fleabay are false economy and a bit flimsey. I always try to do my zeroing while shooting from the same shooting position - Either sitting at a bench, prone or with the rifle and bipod firmly on the bonnet of my motor. If in the prone position make sure that you are comfortable - You would be surprised at hos lying down with a small stome pressing into your chest can effect your comfort and accuracy.

Use the same breating technique for every shot and try to relax. It is very easy to get wound up and tense up if things are not going right and if this happens it will only compound your problems.

Make sure that you take your time over every shot - It is very easy while zeroing to end up rushing your shots, and this will not help your accuracy!

Don't worry too much about the accuracy (Hitting in the centre of the bull every shot) to start with, getting a good group is the way to start - Once you are getting a reasonable group you know that you have minimised any problems with your rifle and you can comfortably start to work on bringing the scopes into zero!

I don't know how experienced a shooter you are but watching this video might also help you to improve on your accuracy once you have sorted all other problems out. This was taught to me by Peter Boddy - A very experienced shooter and a true marksman, and has helped to improve my accuracy when shooting both rimfires and centrefires.

Some people might disagree with the advice that I am giving you but that is the way that I would go about things.

EDIT: I've just noticed that both Kent and Al4x have put replies up while I was typing this one. They both have very valid points which are worth thinking about!

Here is the video that might help when you have the rifle set up and giving you an acceptable group:-

Edited December 24, 2012 by Frenchieboy

[Gimlet]

...Just a bit of an addition to my pervious post which might help you while zeroing your rifle:

When zeroing (And of course when shooting out in the field) always try to use a reasonable quality bipod - Sometimes these "budget" bipods that you can get from Fleabay are false economy and a bit flimsey....

 

Very true. Harris tilting bipods can be further stiffened up by tightening the lock nut behind the knurled nut on the spindle. It reduces rocking motion from pulse and breathing.

[al4x]

or you could get a pod lock for it

[Redgum]

Oh the hmr eh, it can drive you around the bend. What you have to do is find out when it started to loose accuracy. You say its a new gun, has it shot accuratly until now if yes then it could be a touching barrel issue, especially with all this rain, my .22lr did this a few months after new. This is such an easy problem to fix. Make sure this is not the problem and if so put it right, it could be copper fouling, once again fix the problem by cleaning with a good copper solvent (plenty of info on this on the net). So the barrels free floating and the barrel is clean, the groups should have improved if you have fix any of these issues, if not what about the scope. Only real way to check a scope is to try a differant scope. It really is a case on elimination but you must be sure you are shooting accuratley to start, bipod and bags etc on a still day. Your rifle will always be more accurate at closer ranges with groups opening out more the further you go out. Good luck with it, at times I have almost reduced mine to banging in fencing stakes but when its well set up on a nice still evening its a cracking 100 -180yd bunny rifle.

[Bazooka Joe]

Thing is its brand new, how will I knw if its touching? Run paper along the underside of barrell and stock?

 

You don't say whether you have done this or not.?

 

When you do it, do it whilst the weight of the rifle barrel is on the bipod, in the prone position as if your taking a shot.

[lewis2012]

Oh the hmr eh, it can drive you around the bend. What you have to do is find out when it started to loose accuracy. You say its a new gun, has it shot accuratly until now if yes then it could be a touching barrel issue, especially with all this rain, my .22lr did this a few months after new. This is such an easy problem to fix. Make sure this is not the problem and if so put it right, it could be copper fouling, once again fix the problem by cleaning with a good copper solvent (plenty of info on this on the net). So the barrels free floating and the barrel is clean, the groups should have improved if you have fix any of these issues, if not what about the scope. Only real way to check a scope is to try a differant scope. It really is a case on elimination but you must be sure you are shooting accuratley to start, bipod and bags etc on a still day. Your rifle will always be more accurate at closer ranges with groups opening out more the further you go out. Good luck with it, at times I have almost reduced mine to banging in fencing stakes but when its well set up on a nice still evening its a cracking 100 -180yd bunny rifle.

Just checked the rifle over, slid a piece of paper under the barrel nicely and barrell doesn't seem to be touching stock at any point so that's 1 good thing, next tried to look down the barrel obv through the chamber way, pointed safely bolt out etc barrell looks a little cruddy but difficult to see tidy as not a very large barrel in diameter, scopes seem tight but will have to check with allen key but should be ok.Here's what I'm thinking, when I was zeroing the rifle I was finding it difficult to get comfy, got in a comfyish position but noy totally prone, more to 1 side but rifle still held still and on bipod. Upon firing the rifle I never took my eye off the scope I even used it to see where round had gone. Maybe even trigger pull? As trigger a little heavy as standard but not a great dealThanks all for your helpLewis

[T-Bolt94]

If you say you were leaning to one side...you may have fired with the cross hairs at a slight angle. This can affect the bullet

[Gregthegreat]

Have you achieved better groups than this before?

[Gimlet]

Doesn't matter what the bore looks like. Get it thoroughly clean before you start looking for other causes. In a process of elimination eliminate the obvious first:

Bore clean

Barrel floating

Scope secure

Mod clean and unclipped.

Now you're getting somewhere. Its either you, the scope or the ammo. So you have three options: Try different ammo (pull a boresnake through a few times between brands); try a different shooter; try a different scope.

[lewis2012]

The scope is a brand new Nicco Sterling Platinum Nighteater illuminit recticle 10x50-60 with paralex adjustment, etc.

Im going to go back out in a few days if i can and give it another go as could have been me but im more towards the ammo in my opinion. Ive never really give it a proper good zero on at 50 yds to get it on paper, so took it back out to zero it at around 100 and thats when it started throwing all these groups! Im using Hornady 17gr, if it still does it im going to try different ammo.

Shall i just get a bore snake? Or do i need cleaning rods, solvents, gun oil etc?

Thanks mate

Lewis

[Gimlet]

The scope is a brand new Nicco Sterling Platinum Nighteater illuminit recticle 10x50-60 with paralex adjustment, etc.

Im going to go back out in a few days if i can and give it another go as could have been me but im more towards the ammo in my opinion. Ive never really give it a proper good zero on at 50 yds to get it on paper, so took it back out to zero it at around 100 and thats when it started throwing all these groups! Im using Hornady 17gr, if it still does it im going to try different ammo.

Shall i just get a bore snake? Or do i need cleaning rods, solvents, gun oil etc?

Thanks mate

Lewis

 

I think we're beginning to see what might be wrong....

Get a decent one-piece coated rod, a couple of wire bore brushes (they don't last long), or a nylon one, a jag and some patches. I use Proshot tools and pre-cut Proshot patches. Get a Hoppes boresnake as well. I use Forrest bore foam solvent. I've found its the fastest and most thorough.

I use Tetra fluropolymer oil for the metal work, a smear of white grease on the bolt occasionally and an action/chamber brush to get into the tight spots.

 

 

Spend an hour or two on here searching gun cleaning. A thorough and regular cleaning routine is the way to get the best from any cartridge rifle, but especially the fussy and dirty HMR. Learn how to do it properly and start as you mean to go on. I doubt if there's anything wrong with the rifle, though you've gone the air rifle shooters favourite Hubble space telescope route on top which wouldn't do for me. Unless its wrongly mounted the scope shouldn't be faulty - though it wouldn't be the first Nicko Sterling to fail out of the box if it was; but those monster FT scopes are a mistake on rimfires in my opinion. It will do nothing for your shooting technique and if it was me I'd change it for a decent quality but affordable 'proper' hunting scope. A Meopta Meopro 3-12 X 50 would get my vote. You get a lot of quality for the money and it's all the mag you'll ever need at HMR ranges and the image quality and light gathering will be superior to the NS. But of course its your money and your choice.

 

You could have a hardware failure but I suspect your group problems are down to poor maintenance/running in, inexperience and possibly wrong ammo. That's where you start. You must have: 1: a clean rifle, 2: compatible ammo and 3: as little shooter error as possible before you can begin to evaluate what else might be wrong.

Happy Christmas. Have fun.

[al4x]

Scope wouldn't be my choice but its worth trying it on another gun if possible, I'd doubt the ammo would produce those groups so best thing is clean and go from there.

[Gregthegreat]

We still need to establish if you've shot better than this at this range previously. If not, then it's extremely likely it's purely down to your marksmanship.

[reegy]

We still need to establish if you've shot better than this at this range previously. If not, then it's extremely likely it's purely down to your marksmanship.

 

totally agree with you

[lewis2012]

No not as bad as this + this 17hmr is 200 rounds old from new so hardly fired this rifle. Will buy a bore snake + sum solvent cleaner + oil tomoz as 200 rounds an no clean inside the barrell could possibly open the groups up

[Gregthegreat]

Yes very likely bud. Give it a good clean and have another go but start closer and work your way back.

[lewis2012]

Yes very likely bud. Give it a good clean and have another go but start closer and work your way back.

Thanks mate! And thanks to everyone for your help! Much appreciated

Regards

Lewis

[cockercas]

Dont get a bore snake. Get a rod, bronze/nylon brush, solvant and some copper remover. A bore snake is not used for cleaning. There for a quick wipe.